The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

Statement by the Llywydd

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary session. Before we begin, I want to set out a few points. This meeting will be held in hybrid format, with some Members in the Chamber and others joining by video-conference. All Members participating in proceedings of the Senedd, wherever they may be, will be treated equally. A Plenary meeting held using video-conference, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's meeting, and these are set out on your agenda.

1. Questions to the Minister for Climate Change

The first item is questions to the Minister for Climate Change, and I've received notification, under Standing Order 12.58, that all questions under this item will be answered by the Deputy Minister for Climate Change on behalf of the Minister. The first question is from Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Coal Tip Safety

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: 1. Will the Minister provide an update on coal tip safety in South Wales East? OQ57887

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. I'd refer the Member to the oral statement made yesterday, and, of course, we're debating this this afternoon. As we made clear, inspections of higher rated tips have recently completed and we committed £44.4 million for maintenance works over the next three years.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you for the answer.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: It was clear from the coal tip safety statement yesterday that there is much more work to be done in the years ahead to make safe the legacy of our industrial past in Wales. It'll take many years and and hundreds of millions of pounds to sort thisout.It goes without saying that Westminster, which reaped the benefits and the profits from the coal industry, should be footing the bill. It's a scandal that they are not. How are you linking up with other Government departments to ensure that we will have the necessary expertise and capacity within Wales to undertake the specialist work needed to make our communities safe? Remedial work considered acceptable decades ago must surely now be reassessed in light of the climate crisis we face.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you, yes, and I completely agree that there is a role here for the UK Government. This is a legacy of Britain's industrial past. The tips were accumulated before power was devolved to Wales and the UK Government must play its role in meeting that bill. And I think there is consensus in this Chamber, certainly on non-Conservative benches, that that's the case.
As the Member rightly says, we do need to make sure that there is innovation and technology in the way that we address both the threat of the tip and the opportunity that regeneration brings. And there's no doubt, both through skilling and supply chain, as well as innovation, that, in meeting our obligation to deal with these tips, there are also benefits that can be brought to the communities that currently host them.So, we have an innovation programme, which I mentioned yesterday, using some world-first technologies and we'll be trialling those in the years to come. We are working with the local authorities, and, as part of the consultation now on the Law Commission report, we'll be assessing the creation of a new statutory body, which will need to be a partnership with other delivery agencies in Wales in order that we can together meet the challenge this presents.

Natasha Asghar AS: Deputy Minister, last week, the Law Commission made a number of recommendations for a new safety regime to help protect against a range of threats to coal tip safety and to ensure a consistent approach is taken to all tips in Wales, in response to which you made a statement yesterday. In your statement, you said that the Welsh Government does not have the funding to ensure that coal tips are safe in Wales. However, in March 2020, the Secretary of State for Wales wrote a letter to all Members of the Senedd saying that the UK Government would look seriously at all requests for funding to support management of coal tips, following the spate of flooding across south Wales at that time. So, can I ask, Deputy Minister, what discussions have you had with local authorities in Wales to ensure that they are aware of this funding from the Wales Office to ensure the required action to ensure coal tip safety in the period before you introduce and pass legislation? Thank you.

Lee Waters AC: Well, the funding that was made available after the floods amounted to some £9 million and around half of that has gone to coal tip safety in Tylorstown. We've spent some £20 million on that. We're facing a bill of in excess of £500 million. We've committed £44.4 million over the next three years. The UK Government has refused to give any further money, and both the Secretary of State for Wales and his under-secretary have been consistent and robust in saying that it's now not a matter for them. In their view, this is up to us to solve, and I just reject that analysis. I think it would be far better if we could work together on this and recognise that there is a shared obligation to deal with this challenge. That is not the view of the Secretary of State, as I understand it, but it would be great if Members opposite could help some sense to be seen.

Decarbonising Housing

Mike Hedges AC: 2. Will the Minister provide an update on decarbonising housing? OQ57878

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. We have introduced new build standards for social homes, which banish the use of fossil fuels, with ambitions for private developers to adopt these requirements by 2025. We also continue to invest in the optimised retrofit programme, exploring the most effective and efficient ways of decarbonising existing social housing stock.

Mike Hedges AC: I thank the Minister for that answer. I personally would like to commend Swansea Council and local registered social landlords on the work that the have done in decarbonising their new housing. I represent a constituency that has a large number of owner-occupied and privately rented houses, which were built in the nineteenth century. What progress has been made to reduce heat loss from private and privately rented housing? And what is the plan to decarbonise these houses? I recognise it's going to be long and I recognise it's going to be difficult.

Lee Waters AC: Well, I'd like to echo what Mike Hedges said about Swansea Council. I think it's an excellent example of a partnership between a Labour-run local authority and a Welsh Labour Government. They themselves have invested some £60 million this financial year in warmer, more energy efficient homes, creating some 25 new low-carbon homes, as well as a programme of energy efficiency for existing homes, totalling around £46 million. I think that is a tremendous effort on their part to deal with the cost of living crisis, by providing practical help to deal with fuel poverty and addressing the net zero challenge.
On the issue of private houses, we are very fortunate that we have Rent Smart Wales, which is something other parts of the UK don't have, which allows us to map the properties in the private sector to see which ones are not currently meeting minimum energy efficiency standards. And then, with that information, we can look at what mix of grant and loan is needed to incentivse those homes to meet the standard and to exceed it. We're taking an approach, as Mike Hedges knows, of trialling our optimised retrofit programme, which is a £220 million investment by us, and taking what we describe as a 'fabric first' approach, recognising that there have been difficulties with retrofit programmes across the UK over the last few years and all houses are different. In particular, Wales has an old housing stock, with very varied housing stock, and what might be a solution for a terraced house in the Valleys might be different for a suburban bungalow. So, we need to trial, which we are, different fabrics to understand what would be the most efficient, and when we understand those practicalities, we can then set out a pathway towards decarbonisation.

Altaf Hussain AS: Good afternoon, Deputy Minister. Minister, owner-occupied homes make up more than 70 per cent of the 1.4 million homes that we have in Wales. On average, our properties are older than elsewhere in the UK, and many will have a challenge in achieving decarbonisation to the target you have set. If the problem is one of energy supply, how does the Welsh Government expect families to move away from gas towards renewable sources, and how will it pay for it?

Lee Waters AC: Well, I would like to welcome Altaf Hussain to the Labour benches—[Laughter.] There is much joy in heaven for every sinner that repents.

Can I just explain that there are too many Tories to fit into the Tory bench and, therefore, there is a need for a seat in the Labour cohort?

Lee Waters AC: I couldn't agree more, Llywydd. There are, indeed, too many Tories and we shall make sure there are fewer at the next election—[Laughter.] But, seriously, to answer the point of the Member's question, which I thank him for, how we tackle the private sector homes is clearly a challenge for us all. I did note in the Chancellor's budget he did announce a reduction in VAT for some solar renewable technology, which we welcome, but, I'm afraid, it is insufficient for the challenge that faces us. This is largely not something that can be done by the Welsh Government; this is something that we need to do across the UK, and decarbonising homes is going to be a key part of meeting our net-zero targets, both for heat and for electricity. The technology is available, it is proven and it is cost-effective.
I did think it was a massive mistake that the UK Government got rid of the feed-in tariff a few years ago. It was brought in 2010 when there was a Liberal Democrat-Conservative coalition, and it had significant success in incentivising private homeowners to invest in their own property, as well as to feed into the grid with renewables. And I think it was a major error to withdraw that in 2019. So, there does need now to be, I think, a significant programme across the UK of incentivising homeowners to invest in renewable energy. That is the way to get energy security. That is the way to make sure we are not reliant on Russian oil and gas, and that is the way to decarbonise and deal with fuel poverty. But, so far, we've heard little from the UK Government about this, and I'd be very keen to work with them to put that right.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Members will be aware that, yesterday, during business questions, I did call, through the Trefnydd, on the Deputy Minister for Climate Change to make a statement regarding the horrendous situation on Monday that saw a number of trains, several carriages, hundreds of travellers stranded for several hours on trains on a very warm day, and the situation was less than ideal. Well, I'm very pleased to say that the Minister and I spoke yesterday afternoon, afterwards, and he did promise that he would get some kind of information back from Transport for Wales. I'm very grateful for the letter I've had from the chief executive, via you, Deputy Minister, and they are going to launch a serious investigation into that. They are asking anybody to come forward who was greatly affected by this, and I would urge people to do that. Diolch.
So, moving on to my spokesperson's questions, my first one is on energy security. Now, our actions on energy security must be resolute and firm if we are to safeguard the future of a vibrant and international outlook in Wales. We must play our part to end the global addiction to Russian energy and unleash the power of our own Welsh dragon. Russian imports currently account for 8 per cent of total UK oil demand and 4 per cent of total UK gas supply. Now, in response to the shocking and illegal invasion of Ukraine, the UK Government is to phase out oil imports during the course of the year. The UK's exposure to volatile global gas prices underscores the importance of the UK Government's plan to generate more cheap, clean, renewable energy and nuclear power in the UK.Your vision as to how to scale up renewable energy in Wales has been outlined in the renewable energy deep-dive. Some of the recommendations are set to take some time to deliver—2023 for marine strategic resource areas, and 2024 for a national energy plan. In light of the new energy crisis, what steps will you take to supercharge work on producing more renewable energy and bringing forward the national energy plan? Diolch.

Lee Waters AC: Well, Llywydd, there are two separate points to address there, and I'll try and address them both. On the first, I was present yesterday afternoon during business questions, and I heard the quite harrowing accounts by the Member of the experience she and fellow passengers had had, and I was very sorry to hear it. I met with the chair and the chief executive of Transport for Wales straight afterwards to discuss it. Clearly, it's not right that just because there happened to be politicians on the train that there is a response, but there were a number of Members there who were able to give first-hand testimony, and I took it very seriously, and particularly the accounts of members of the public not able to attend a funeral and having trouble with their jobs. So, Transport for Wales are taking this very seriously. There was a problem with the train leaving a maintenance depot—not a TfW maintenance depot—but then it ceased to function once it hit a certain point, and that caused then a cascade of problems. So, I'm very keen, as are they, to use the exercise to learn lessons, particularly around the communications. There do seem to be some significant failings in the way the messaging was dealt with. So, I've had a very constructive and robust conversation with TfW about this, and we are both keen to learn from it to make sure we can try and prevent this from happening again. And I'd like to reiterate the apology that I gave to all members of the public who were on that train. Things will happen from time to time on the railways, but it's how we respond to them, I think, is the mark of it, and I hope that we can certainly learn the lessons from that.
On the issue of energy security, I must disagree with the characterisation of Janet Finch-Saunders of the UK Government's response. The way we develop energy security is not just to wean ourselves off Russian oil, but to wean ourselves off fossil fuels. We not only face a short-term energy crisis, we face a parallel climate crisis, and digging more oil out of the North sea, which is what the UK Government is proposing to do, flies in the face of all the science, flies in the face of what the Prime Minister was saying not months ago in Glasgow. All of a sudden, his video-tape memory has been wiped clean yet again and he's learned none of the lessons of the past. What we need is a rapid deployment of renewables across the UK, both at a housing level—to have solar energy on every house, on every building, as well as energy efficiency—and the range of micro, hydro and generation technologies that we know work, we know are cost-effective, and we know are making a greater part of the energy mix. That is a major mistake.
In terms of her criticism that our moves on marine are not quick, then the idea that deploying nuclear energy is going to happen at speed is rather fanciful. It is neither cheap nor clean nor quick, I would say to her. We take a pragmatic view on nuclear. In north Wales, we know it provides innovation and economic development, and is part of the energy mix whilst we scale up renewables rapidly. But it is a short-term fix. For the UK Government to seize on that as a response to the energy crisis I think is misguided. I'll repeat what I said to Altaf Hussain earlier: the removal by the UK Government of the feed-in tariff in 2019, the moratorium on onshore wind, and the failure to support the Swansea tidal lagoon are historic errors. We've had a lost decade. Rather than getting ourselves resilient with true energy security and a renewable system, they've continued our dependence on Russian oil and gas, and look where it's got us.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I thank the Deputy Minister for both responses. In addition to driving forward the work on meeting the recommendations of the deep dive, you could act on the majority will of the Senedd. Whilst the deep dive recommends publication of guidance to signpost appropriate and inappropriate areas for development of different renewable energy technologies, the Senedd gave its full support to my legislative proposal, which did call for legal levers such as a duty for the Welsh Government to facilitate the creation of a national marine development plan. As the RSPB have stated, the lack of robust statutory weighted development control and spatial policies to steer development away from environmentally sensitive areas from the outset creates uncertainty for all. And as is highlighted in the report on the Welsh Government's marine policies, environmental stakeholders called for a cross-sector statutory spatial plan that does address the cumulative impacts of marine developments. So, rather than leave the siting of much-needed renewable schemes to guidance and the Crown Estate, will you follow up on our successful legislative proposal by creating a national marine development plan? Thank you.

Lee Waters AC: The Member is rehearsing arguments we had not a matter of weeks ago in the Senedd Chamber, and I don't intend to go through them all again, other than to say we are satisfied, as we set out in that debate, that we have a mechanism to do that, we have a long-term plan, and there are already policies and actions in place that will do that. As she mentioned, the deep dive was conducted to look at any short-term barriers. One of the things we did identify was the need to review the marine licensing and consents process, and we're doing that now with Natural Resources Wales. The proposal is to look at it from the view of a developer, and go step by step through what might be slowing it down, any points of friction, and to blast them away. I think that has been widely welcomed by stakeholders, and I think it will make a significant difference.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. Alongside our joint support of renewable schemes, it is important that we do everything possible to back nuclear. Last week, the Prime Minister hosted a round-table with leaders from the nuclear industry to discuss how to improve domestic energy security and rapidly accelerate nuclear projects in the UK. As the Rt Hon Boris Johnson MP, our Prime Minister, stated,
'now is the time to make a series of big new bets on nuclear'.
This week, we have learned that the UK Government plans to take a 20 per cent stake in Sizewell C. The Secretary of State for Wales is visiting the US to champion Wylfa. I do appreciate that the Welsh Government has established Cwmni Egino. The leader of Plaid Cymru, Adam Price, has made clear that Plaid Cymru will stick firmly to their anti-nuclear stance. Given their role as co-operation partners, what discussions have you had about the future of nuclear in Wales? Can you clarify whether the Welsh Government does support the development of nuclear projects at both Wylfa and Trawsfynydd, or will your co-operation or coalition agreement change your view on that? Diolch.

Lee Waters AC: Well, my favourite right honourable is the Rt HonElin Jones, and I'd much prefer that she were our focus, rather than Boris Johnson.
I really feel the UK Government are not learning the mistakes of the past. You've just criticised the energy system for being dependent on Russian oil and gas and we're now racing into the arms of Chinese investors to be committed to large nuclear builds. They're the only game in town hitherto when it comes to nuclear. Do we really want to put ourselves in the hands of yet another volatile international partner? I suggest that we don't.
As I've said, our nuclear policy is well-established. We do have proposals through Cwmni Egino and preceding that to look at the development of new nuclear technology at existing sites, and we've set up a company to explore that. We do think there are economic advantages to doing that in the short term. But, as I said, our energy policy focuses primarily on renewables because we think that has both a minimal environmental impact as well as producing energy resilience. And if we do it right, we'll capture the economic benefits entirely in Wales, rather than continuing to leak out funding, as indeed nuclear risks doing.
I fear that the party opposite, despite their commitment to net zero and commitment to economic development in Wales, are making all the same mistakes all over again.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Delyth—

Had you finished? Yes.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, around Wales we have many important ecological sites in very low-lying coastal areas. Sites such as RSPB Newport in the Gwent levels, RSPB Conwy, WTT Llanelli wetlands centre andRSPB Ynyshir near Machynlleth are all vitally important sites for coastal birds, which are unfortunately already endangered. Even a small amount of sea level rise would spell certain doom for species like the sandpiper, the oystercatcher, and numerous other species as well, like otters and rare insects. Even lizards could go extinct in Wales if we lost our unique wetlands. I'm concerned that focusing only on preventing further climate change and sea level rises may not be enough to save our beautiful bird species. Constructing coastal flood defences to protect ecological sites should surely be part of our effort to reverse biodiversity decline. Minister, I know that the Welsh Government has announced a deep dive to look at effective implementation of the Convention on Biological Diversity's global biodiversity framework 30 by 30 target, which is a very long title, saying that that would be initiated after the February half term and in-depth discussions completed by mid May. Given the importance of this ahead of this year's COP15 summit, could you give us some more detail please on when the deep dive discussions are going to start and when the terms of reference will be clarified?

Lee Waters AC: The purpose of these deep dives—and I must say I'm rather going off the title as it's beginning to sound a little pretentious; as I've said, if we keep having deep dives like these, we'll end up with the bends—is a rapid review of barriers, and they start as an open-ended process. In the ones that I've carried out on woodland creation and renewable energy, and I'm now doing something similar on town centres, it's the process rather than the outcome that starts off predesigned. So, we get a range of people in a room, and we meet intensively over a short period. We have a mix of voices. We have people who are practitioners, we have people who are academics and policy experts, and we have some deliberately awkward characters—and I think this is a really important part of the mix—to really create some challenge and some tension. Then we ask them to go with us to identify what they believe, given their experience, are the principal barriers and the main issues. And then, the key challenge from the Minister to them—and it'll be Julie James leading the biodiversity one—is to get them to translate their criticism into practical action. It's very easy for observers to tell us what's wrong; what is harder is to come up with practical policies that can make a difference. That's what we've done successfully, I think, in the other deep dives, and that's what we'll be seeking to do with this one that Julie James will be leading. So, it's impossible to anticipate what it'll come up with, because that is the whole point—we don't know. But we will be relying on an alliance for change to work with us to identify practical steps.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you for that, Minister. Obviously, I hope that coastal flood defences will form part of that work, but I look forward to finding out more as time progresses on it.
Turning, secondly and finally, to the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee's annual report on NRW, it has highlighted widespread concern among stakeholders about NRW's ability to effectively carry out its roles and responsibilities because of a lack of capacity and resources. That includes its ability to monitor and assess the condition of terrestrial and marine protected sites for nature. Could you, therefore, Minister, give us an update, please, on any assessments that have been made of the capacity and resource needed for an adequate programme of monitoring for these sites, and how this compares with the capacity and resource that is currently available?

Lee Waters AC: Well, after more than 10 years of austerity, there isn't a single public body in Wales that has the capacity that they would wish to have, and I think that is just a fact that we have to deal with. NRW is no different from Conwy council or from any other public body, and we, all of us, have to live within our means. There are discussions going on with NRW about how we prioritise. For example, in the hitherto referred to deep dive that I did on woodland creation, one of the things we identified there is that there were 82 people where part of their jobs on woodland creation was about erecting barriers to planting trees. So, that wasn't a capacity issue; that was how we use the capacity we have to align it to our policy outcomes. What we want to do in that case is to recalibrate that effort so that those same people are focused on pursing a different policy outcome. It's not about extra people; it's about using the people you have in a different way. So, there's that discussion to have with NRW across the piece, but there's also prioritisation to have. We've done a baseline budget exercise with them. We're going through that with them now as part of the budget-setting exercise, and we're having other discussions with them about how we treat different forms of spending in order to enable them to do the task that we all want them to do.

Flood Prevention

Siân Gwenllian AC: 3. Will the Minister provide an update on the flood prevention plan for Hirael bay, Bangor? OQ57867

Lee Waters AC: Diolch. Gwynedd Council are designing a scheme to reduce the risk of flooding and coastal erosion at Hirael bay. Natural Resources Wales are also reviewing the modelling data of the Afon Adda. The review will confirm the current standard of protection and consider the potential future risk associated with climate change.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you very much. A number of factors are converging to create the risk in Hirael bay, including the increasing sea level, high water table and the way that the Afon Adda enters the sea. I am very pleased that significant funds are being allocated to a flood defence scheme. I'm aware that there is another scheme in the pipeline in this area, namely a plan to extend the coastal path. So, I would like to understand how the two schemes will dovetail, and how you will ensure that the work does happen jointly and promptly.

Lee Waters AC: The Member is right; the Hirael is challenged with being at risk from a combination of tidal, pluvial and fluvial sources—from the sea, the river and the sky. This will get worse as climate change intensifies—we know this is the case—and Hirael is particularly vulnerable. So, we are investing, as she mentions, £213 million in flood schemes, and this includes a scheme in Hirael bay. It is currently at the detailed design stage with Gwynedd Council, and construction is designed to begin this coming financial year. NRW are also updating the modelling of fluvial flood risk for the Afon Adda system. On the specific point about how we can maximise the advantages of two separate schemes, I think that is an excellent point, and if she doesn't mind, I'll reflect on that and write to her, rather than make something up on the spot.FootnoteLink

Information further to Plenary

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you, Deputy Minister, for your response to the important issue raised by the Member for Arfon. The issue raised there can be repeated in many areas across Wales, particularly my region of north Wales, where there's a particular risk of coastal flooding. In the Chamber earlier this month, I did welcome your statement, or Welsh Government's statement, on flood and coastal erosion risk management. In this statement, Deputy Minister, you suggested that NRW had a lot to do, and you mentioned it just a few moments ago, in terms of the resources and the stretching of the resources. So, in light of this, and with flooding being so detrimental to our communities and such a risk, especially with the climate change risk that you mentioned also, what considerations have you given to developing a national flood agency to deal specifically with these risks?

Lee Waters AC: Well, Sam Rowlands will know about the pressure on resources and that's pressure that has intensified as a result of the spring budget where we are £600 million less well off in this budget round than we were anticipating over the next three years, because of cuts made by the Chancellor. So, we simply do not have the money to do all the things that we would like to do. So, the creation of additional public bodies is not something that we will enter lightly into; we'll want to first look at how we can collaborate with local government. And I know as a former leader of a local authority, he will be a champion, I'm sure, of making sure that we use local government to their maximum when we are committed to a partnership with them on that. And we set out last night, for example, on building safety, that rather than creating additional bodies, as they are in England, we are putting some of those responsibilities on local authorities.
So, the same will be true of how we tackle climate change across the piece. We're going to look, first of all, at the bodies that we have—the Welsh Government, Natural Resources Wales and the local authorities, as well as partnerships with other flood management authorities—to see how we can make the most of those before we start thinking about additional institutions to create and run.

Energy Security

Gareth Davies AS: 4. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to ensure energy security? OQ57890

Lee Waters AC: The UK Government has a legal duty to ensure the UK's energy security, and we expect bold action in its upcoming energy security strategy, which, I understand, has been delayed again. In Wales we are accelerating renewable energy deployment, supporting local energy markets, planning and piloting innovation,to build a net-zero energy system for the future.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you for that answer, Deputy Minister. Our reliance on imported fuel and even energy leaves us vulnerable to external threats. Vladimir Putin has, for years, used the threat of cutting supplies to apply pressure on its European neighbours. Even now, with EU nations sanctioning the Russian federation, they are still pumping billions into Putin's war machine, because they need the gas and oil. Thankfully, we are not as vulnerable, but the knock-on effects have doubled our energy bills. Deputy Minister, this situation has highlighted the need for energy independence, including the need for new nuclear power, as mentioned in previous questions. Of course, much of the work needed will require the lead from the UK Government, however the Welsh Government can take the lead when it comes to energy storage, enabling better utilisation of our renewables. How is your Government working with the industry to create better energy storage solutions here in Wales?

Lee Waters AC: Well, I agree that battery energy storage is definitely one of the things that we need to be speeding up, and certainly there is potential from green hydrogen to act as a source for holding that stored energy. But, again, we have a contribution from the Conservatives this afternoon that is focusing on nuclear and there has been very little emphasis on renewables. There was a mention of battery storage, but not on renewable technologies, and I find this very puzzling, given what we've been hearing from them on the need both for energy security and for meeting net zero.
I do hope that there isn't an ideological blinder when it comes to renewables; we've seen that in practice with the moratorium on onshore wind that's been in place over the last 10 years, which has been a massive missed opportunity. Had that been in place now, we would not be facing the same vulnerability to the Ukrainian war that we are facing, so there's some culpability on the part of the UK Government for its blindness on renwewables there. The same, as I mentioned, on the ending of the feed-in tariff in 2019—a significant mistake that now gives us extra ground to catch up. As well as the failure to back the Swansea bay tidal lagoon, which was backed by Charles Hendry, the former Conservative energy Minister, and nothing has been done. So, we're now hearing the Chancellor talking about a rapid deployment of nuclear. If they'd had that same attitude about the rapid deployment of renewables, we would not be facing the energy crisis that we now are.
And, again, in the budget, the spring statement, we heard the Chancellor announce a cut in fuel duty, which is a fossil fuel tax cut, on the same day as the Welsh Government announced a £31 million investment in a renewable energy project on Ynys Môn—the last large grant from EU structural funds, which many in the party opposite have voted to end. So, they have not put us in the position to be able to face this energy crisis with confidence, and I hopethey will recognise the error of their ways.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Could I, through the Deputy Minister, suggest to colleagues on Conservative benches here that it is not too late to put pressure on the UK Government to invest in marine and tidal technology in Wales, including lagoon technology? It was a terrible, terrible day for Wales when Charles Hendry, who I have a lot of respect for, said it was a no-brainerto invest in the tidal lagoon in Swansea. We're playing catch-up when we could have dealt with that energy security issue. But could I ask him: does he think it is right that what we should be doing now, faced with not just an energy security crisis, but still the long, ongoing—and it'll be with us for generations to come—climate change crisis, is to tackle the two together? And that means doubling down on renewables, and battery storage and so on, but not doubling down on reopening fossil fuels and fracking in North sea oil—doubling down on renewables, hydrogen technology and so on? That's the way that Wales should lead the field.

Lee Waters AC: Well, Huw Irranca-Davies will remember that, at the Conference of the Parties in Glasgow, we were the only Government in the UK that stood alongside Denmark and Sweden and New Zealand and others to establish the Beyond Oil and Gas Alliance, pledging not to extract further oil and gas. Wales has significant resources, potentially, of both, but we have taken a clear principled decision that that is not consistent in meeting our net-zero obligations, and even in the face of a crisis, we are not going to resile from that. The UK Government, who talked big at Glasgow, have quickly forgotten those commitments and are now turning back to fossil fuels, not learning any of the lessons of the past, and also not sticking to their commitments on net zero. It is not going to be possible to reach net zero by 2050 if we are increasing our emissions from North sea oil. That is a significant mistake and more short-termism by the UK Government.
Huw Irranca-Davies is right: there is an opportunity here to meet our climate change emergency while also increasing energy resilience, cutting down on fuel poverty, and increasing local wealth by harnessing the economic potential of renewables for the Welsh economy, and that's what we're focused on.

Question 5, Jane Dodds.

Renewable Energy Projects

Jane Dodds AS: Diolch, Llywydd, and good afternoon, Deputy Minister. If I could continue the theme of renewable energy.

Jane Dodds AS: 5. What support is the Welsh Government providing to small and community-owned renewable energy projects? OQ57877

Lee Waters AC: Thank you for the question. We've successfully supported community energy since 2010. We currently provide support through the Welsh Government energy service and by grant funding Community Energy Wales. We are scaling up our support for local and community energy by implementing the recommendations of the renewable energy deep dive.

Jane Dodds AS: Diolch yn fawr iawn. Last year I had the opportunity to visit Hafod y Llan hydroelectric project, the National Trust's first large-scale renewable energy project. On my visit, the project team highlighted that the financial opportunities available to small schemes like theirs in Scotland would really help boost the sector here in Wales. The Scottish Government established the Community and Renewable Energy Scheme to encourage local and community ownership of renewable energy projects across Scotland and to help maximise the benefits of renewable energy systems, whether commercial or community owned. May I therefore ask what financial support will you look to bring forward for small renewable energy projects, such as those in Hafod y Llan, to deliver the programme for government commitment to expand renewable energy generation by public bodies and community groups in Wales? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Lee Waters AC: Well, as Jane Dodds rightly mentioned, we have that target to increase energy generation by over 100 MW between now and 2026 by public bodies. We've seen the excellent example of Morriston Hospital, where a solar farm has now been opened that is powering the hospital entirely for a significant amount of time. We are very committed to working with community energy groups, because, as I said, the principle coming out of the deep dive was that not only do we need to meet our climate change targets, but we need to do it in a way that retains wealth within our local economy, and we don't want to see a repeat of extractive economic development that we've seen in previous industrial revolutions happen this time. So, community energy is essential to that. And there is much to admire about the Scottish Community and Renewable Energy Scheme. We have our own scheme, the Welsh Government's energy service, which provides technical and commercial support to community-led projects. We've recently awarded £2.35 million to the Egni Co-op to deliver another phase of its excellent rooftop solar programme, which I visited in Caerleon recently, and that will be delivering a further 2 MW of locally owned capacity and providing, crucially, a community share offer. So, not only are these public buildings getting cheap and free electricity, they're also getting a share in the co-op. It's an excellent example.
So, in terms of the Scottish example, our own local energy grant and our local energy loan funds, in fact, offer more generous support than the Scottish scheme does. But I think their community outreach model is a very interesting one, and one I'd certainly be interested in looking at further myself. So, thank you for bringing that to our attention.

Samuel Kurtz MS: In preparation for this supplementary question, I thought I'd take myself to the Welsh Government's community energy webpage to see what the latest information and guidance was for the people of Wales who are looking to play their part in developing green and renewable energy for themselves and their communities. And given that, in the response to the Member for Mid and West Wales, the Deputy Minister said community energy is being scaled up, I was expecting a website full of all the latest and most up-to-date information, given the urgency we need to transition to renewable energy. Cue my surprise, then, when your website, the Welsh Government's own website aimed at supporting the people to develop community energy, hasn't been updated since September 2019, with some information such as feed-in tariff guidance and renewable heat incentive guidance stemming all the way back to 2015, before the Deputy Minister was even elected to this place. You may talk a good game, Deputy Minister, but isn't it the truth that what this Government says and what this Government does are two very different things?

Lee Waters AC: Well, I very much enjoyed the Member's meanderings through the information superhighway. I'm not sure it entirely hits the point, though, but I'm willing to look at that, because, obviously, that does need updating. But as I mentioned in my answer to Jane Dodds, we are funding Community Energy Wales to be the focal point of providing advice on how to take forward community energy schemes, and their website, I'm pleased to tell the Member, is fully up to date.

Green Vehicles

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 6. How is the Welsh Government supporting individuals to drive greener vehicles? OQ57872

Lee Waters AC: We're investing in rolling out publicly accessible charge points to support the switch to electric vehicles in line with our EV charging strategy. We're also mapping plans with industry to transition to zero-emission buses, piloting taxi and private hire vehicle schemes, piloting e-bike schemes and investing in zero-emission car clubs.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: E-carsales are steadily increasing across the UK, as car manufactures perfectly promote the benefits of ditching diesel and petrol. On the continent, Germany doubled incentives for EVs in 2020, offering a €3,000 bonus for fully electrical vehicles and €2,250—Euros I might add—towards hybrids, as well as a 10-year tax exemption and lower VAT rates. France has also joined the list of European countries to provide EV incentives, offering national producers such as Renault a support package to encourage greater EV production. The French Government is also offering consumers carbon dioxide-related tax exemptions and subsidies of up to €7,000 and a scrappage scheme for old, traditionally fuelled cars. Will the Minister back calls for such a scrappage scheme to take place here in Wales, and will you subsequently work with EV companies so that they might move their production operations here so that we can energise highly skilled green sector jobs and promote Wales as a global green market leader and industry?

Lee Waters AC: Well, we did publish an action plan in October last year, and I'm pleased that, last Friday, the UK Government eventually published its long-awaited EV charging strategy. That set a target for a tenfold increase in public charging across the UK by 2030, so we welcome that. The UK Government holds mainly the levers on this, and we are supporting local authorities to apply for the Office for Zero Emission Vehicles fund for public charging. Now, unfortunately, the Member's own authority of Conwy has failed to engage with this fund, but we will pursue this further, because there's an opportunity for her constituents to benefit from this. And, indeed, when I was looking to drive to Llandudno myself recently in an EV, I could find very few sites on the Zap-Map app, so I do hope she'll persuade her own authority, which I believe she's still a member of, or until last week—[Interruption.] Until last week, apologies. So, it's—

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Point of order—

No, you don't need to make a point of order. I don't think Janet Finch-Saunders is a councillor any longer.

Lee Waters AC: No, indeed, until last week. Forgive me, Llywydd, I keep hearing her declarations of interest in my head, so it stuck.
We have funded a green taxi pilot in Denbighshire, in Pembrokeshire and in Cardiff to 'try before you buy' and we've installed rapid chargers in those areas, and we're planning rapid charging points on the strategic road network this year, as well as, as I mentioned, the electric bike pilot project, one of which is in Rhyl, and I was very pleased to take part in myself, which is an excellent project with great enthusiasm.
On her point on scrappage schemes, it's an interesting point and one we've got an open mind about. I think this is best done at a UK level. There is a risk here, I think, because most people are not going to be able to afford electric cars for some time, until a robust second-hand car market emerges. We see around a quarter of households without access to any car at all, and there's a judgment for us of where we put scarce resources. Do we do it in serving people who already have access to cars to give them a nice green car, or do we do it to improve public transport, to give people on low incomes who don't have access to transport to have that? So, that is the dilemma for us. There's a very interesting scheme in Birmingham as part of their clean air zone, which I know you oppose, looking at a scrappage scheme to incentivise people to drive into the city centre in clean vehicles. So, I think there's an ongoing debate for us all to have about the right balance to reach these necessary targets.

The Energy Crisis

Laura Anne Jones AC: 7. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to tackle the energy crisis? OQ57875

Lee Waters AC: The UK Government’s failure to step up will be devastating for households across the UK. We've taken swift action—doubling the winter fuel payment to £200 for this year and next, introducing a more generous council tax rebate than the UK Government and increasing our discretionary fund for householders who are struggling.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Minister, you're right in one thing: the war in Ukraine, as you said earlier, has brought the importance of energy independence into sharp focus. As it's in your control, and out of interest, as a Government, will you now be reconsidering your stance on fracking?

Lee Waters AC: No.

Meeting Housing Need

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: 8. What steps is the Government taking to ensure that appropriate housing is available to meet community need? OQ57882

Lee Waters AC: We exceeded our previous housing commitment in Wales and we continue to build on this. Our 20,000 homes target focuses on increasing homes within the social sector. We've allocated record levels of investment in housing for the next three years to support the need for homes across Wales.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I thank the Deputy Minister for that response. I welcome the progress that's been made and the additional budget towards social housing. If we're to tackle the housing crisis, then of course we must have more social housing available, but they must also be fit for purpose. I've been to see a number of constituents recently who have to live in inappropriate accommodation. Take Claire, for example, a mother of four, two of them babies, and she lives in the uppermost flat and has to carry the pram up, leave the baby upstairs, then go back down, get the other pram and so on and so forth, and then has to go down for the third or fourth time then to get the shopping. It's totally inappropriate housing for her, and the flat is also cold and damp. Claire is one example of many in my constituency, never mind examples in every other constituency too.
We also know that there is demand for bungalows for people with mobility needs or elderly people, and there's increasing demand for one-bedroomed housing for a particular group of people within our society. What steps are you taking as a Government, then, not only to build more homes but also to identify people's needs and ensure that those new homes either meet that need or can easily be adapted, and cheaply, to meet specific needs?

Lee Waters AC: Well, Mabon ap Gwynfor makes a number of fair points there, and he makes two essential criticisms that the social housing system has not kept up with demand for many decades, which is correct, and that the private sector housing is providing too many of the same types of houses and not catering to the range of needs, such as bungalows, and there's a complex set of problems beneath both of those issues.
We are addressing the first with a very ambitious stretch target of 20,000 low-carbon social homes, which will make a significant difference, and there's progress being made this year in Gwynedd. I'm pleased to see seven housing schemes being funded for social rent, which has the potential to provide 88 homes in the coming years, which will make some difference in those communities. In terms of the broader critique of the way the market can provide a mono approach to housing, a large-volume approach, and not the variety that an ageing population requires, then that does require further disruption to the market model. And we are, as he knows, through our co-operation agreement, trialling a range of different approaches, as well as our modern methods of construction suite of reforms, to encourage well-designed and a greater diversity of houses to replenish the housing stock.
But, ultimately, this is market failure, and we do need, through our foundational economy projects, working with registered social landlords, to stimulate local supply chains and get local small and medium-sized enterprise builders to step back into the housing market rather than doing extensions and garages, which they primarily focus on at the moment because it provides a reliable and quick return. We do need to have a different approach from the market to meet the need he rightly addresses.

I thank the Deputy Minister.

2. Questions to the Minister for Education and Welsh Language

We will now move to our next item, questions to the Minister for Education and Welsh Language, and the first question is from Samuel Kurtz.

Students with Additional Learning Needs

Samuel Kurtz MS: 1. What support is available for students with additional learning needs in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire? OQ57891

Jeremy Miles AC: We are committed to ensuring learners across Wales can access a high standard of education and reach their full potential. The new additional learning needs system ensures that all children and young people that require additional support to meet anALN have the support properly planned for and protected.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Diolch, Weinidog, and I refer Members to my register of interests. I've recently successfully helped a constituent family, based in Pembrokeshire, who have had to fight for their child to be able to join their sister in attending the Canolfan Elfed inclusion unit based in Queen Elizabeth High School in neighbouring Carmarthenshire. This unit provides excellent service and provision for a range of secondary school age children with additional learning needs. However, without my intervention, this child would not have been able to join their sister, sharing the same taxi to and from school, and receive the educational support that he needs. There was a lack of communication or understanding between the two local authorities, and common sense was ignored. What I'd like to know, Minister, is: why is it so difficult for pupils with ALN to receive the support they need if it means crossing a county boundary? And what actions are you and your Government taking to ensure ALN support isn't a postcode lottery? Diolch, Llywydd.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I thank the Member for that supplementary. I can't comment on the specifics of his constituents' situation for reasons that he will understand, but, if he writes to me about that particular situation, I'll be very happy to have my officials look into it.

A-level Students

Russell George AC: 2. How is the Welsh Government supporting A-level students this year given the impact of the pandemic on their education? OQ57864

Jeremy Miles AC: The WJEC have announced adaptations to exams, with reductions to content and advance information to help learners prepare. We've provided £24 million of exam-year funding to provide attendance, teaching, revision and transition support to enable A-level students to progress. A communications campaign signposting learners to useful revision and well-being resources has begun.

Russell George AC: Thank you, Minister, for your answer. I recently met with A-level students at Llanidloes High School in my own constituency following one particular student contacting me. I met up with a number of students. They outlined their concerns to me. I followed up with mentioning much of what you've just said now, Minister—I talked about the support package you announced before Christmas. But one particular student came back to me, and I'll relay what he said. I'm hoping you can help answer him directly. What this particular student says is 'educational support should be equally available and accessible to all students, regardless of who the Government deems more disadvantaged.' I think he's making that point because you're very much targeting disadvantaged pupils. Well, they want to know who is disadvantaged and how you define that.
The student goes on to say, 'How are the Welsh Government engaging with the ways factors, such as attendance, affect pupils negatively?' And he goes on to talk about there could be 100 per cent attendance from pupils themselves, but it could be that teachers are not in due to the pandemic, and how does that affect their educational learning as well. He also talks about how 'the content changing or being cut does not provide many marks, based on our knowledge of past papers.' And these are factors that the Welsh Government don't seem to be taking into consideration when offering support. So, I'm hoping, Minister, that you can help directly reply to this particular student that has these particular concerns and the particular points that they've mentioned to me.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes, of course I can. The support that is available is available to students in all parts of Wales, and is available equally. And I would ask your student to look at the Power Up website, which the Welsh Government launched some weeks ago, which has a suite of resources to support learners with their examinations as well as a comprehensive indication of what the changes are to course content, what the advance notice is of each of the areas of examination, and the suite of resources available to support them with well-being and mental health issues, and that is available to every single learner in Wales.
The grade boundaries for examinations this summer, as the Member knows, will be at a point between 2019 and 2021, and that will apply to all students equally. The £7.5 million of funding allocated to support learners to develop their core skills in qualifications such as maths and English are available to all students. In particular—as his constituent mentioned the concern in relation to those who've lost out in terms of school attendance—£7 million of the funding I announced before Christmas will be to support those whose attendance has been particularly low, and a further £9.5 million will be to support all students transitioning from school to further education or sixth-form colleges. So, that suite of support is available to all students in Wales. There is additional support available to students who have particular needs, but that builds very much on the approach that this Government has taken throughout, which is providing a universal level of support, but targeting additional support at those who need it most.

Hefin David AC: My question was going to be very similar to Russell George's, so I'll adjust it slightly to say that I've had the same kind of representations. One constituent particularly has asked for exams not to take place this year. Now, that's not a view that I actually support, because I think if we're going to move away from exams it needs to be done in a strategic and planned way. But certainly it represents the anxiety that that parent is feeling for their children, and how their children are feeling. So, you've outlined some of the additional support. In future, would you be considering looking at exams as an approach to assessment, and maybe, in those subjects that don't lend themselves to exams, moving to a more balanced form of assessment that might take some of the stress out of that time of the year for students?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, on the point in relation to exams, I do understand, obviously, that there'll be students this year sitting external exams for the first time, and some of the support that I've outlined in my answer to Russell George is intended specifically to support those students. The challenge that we have been wrestling with throughout, really, is the loss of teaching time. That's the fundamental question that learners are themselves struggling with, and the judgment to pursue exams this year was partly reflecting the position across the UK, and I didn't want learners in Wales to be disadvantaged by that, but, equally, the experience of centre-determined grades for last year meant even less teaching time was available, because teachers' time was taken up in actually making the assessment. So, that's part of the thinking behind the decision to pursue exams for this summer.
The longer term question is an important question. I do think that, in the last two years, we've understood that different means of assessment have a different contribution to make. As he will know, Qualifications Wales are undertaking a review at the moment of examinations generally at GCSE. Some of that is around course content, but actually there's a very important discussion to be had about the balance between examination and non-examination, and also the points in the year at which assessments take place, and I hope that that process, that review process, which is open for everyone to contribute to, will lead to ambitious reform in that space.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Laura Anne Jones.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Diolch, Presiding Officer. Minister, I could ask you a myriad of things today, on free school meals, the Queen's jubilee book, exams, as my colleague just outlined, or anything, but I have some really pressing matters I wish you to address. It has come to light during our peer-on-peer sexual harassment review that we're holding currently in the Children, Young People, and Education Committee that there has been no-one commissioned by this Government to collect evidence on the impact that it's had on home-schooled children. This obviously started alarm bells ringing with me, as Wales has seen an uptake in home-schooled children over the past two years. So, one could say that this evidence is actually vital, and leads to further questions on what evidence there is on home-schooled children full stop. So, Professor Renold, who was commissioned by your Government, made it clear that there is no evidence, and, to quote her, she said there absolutely needs to be. So, do you have evidence, Minister, on home-schooled children and how they've been affected, not just by peer-on-peer sexual harassment, but by the pandemic and more generally? And what protections are there in place for these children whilst being home schooled?

Jeremy Miles AC: The Member asks a very important question about a very serious matter. And she's right, obviously, to identify the fact that it is more challenging to be able to understand the experience of home-schooled children, which is why we are keen to make sure that children are being taught in school with their peers, subject to the safeguarding regime that all schools operate.
She will know that the work that we had in train to bring forward legislation to update the home-schooling laws has been postponed effectively, or paused effectively, due to COVID. But I can say that we are looking to bring forward legislation in this space—hopefully to be bringing forward legislation this summer—which would have the intention that it would be in place by next year, which would strengthen the tools available to local authorities in this area.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Thank you, Minister. As you know, Minister, the Welsh Government announced an independent review of educational leadership last year. The leadership review was completed last autumn, only it hasn't been published. Minister, simply: when will you be releasing this report and why have you been sitting on it for so long?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I have not been sitting on it. The point that the Member makes is very important. We know—and she will recall from my statement last week in relation to ensuring that we have a system that delivers high standards and aspirations for all our learners—that one of the key contributors to that is school leadership and that good leadership in schools is able to make a significant difference. So, this Government absolutely sets that as a priority. The work with the National Academy for Educational Leadership in this space is testament to that. I will be bringing forward further statements in relation to leadership in the summer term.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Minister, it isn't good enough that this report has been sat on and hidden away for so long. We were told during the announcement of the review that the
'Leadership Review will inform future developments and provide clarity on the support we have for school leaders across the system, and the support they will need to enable them to realise the new curriculum.'
We were also told that it would be released late last year, right here in your Government's own press release—this particular report, Minister. Why has it not been released, Minister? Is it because the report is pretty damning about the regional consortia and thus, by association, this Government's leadership of education in Wales? Minister, it's a simple 'yes' or 'no' on this one: will you commit to releasing that particular report immediately?

Jeremy Miles AC: As I said to the Member in my earlier response, I plan to bring forward a statement in the summer term on leadership and that will lay out our position at that time.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Llywydd. Minister, the most recent annual report on 'Cymraeg 2050', published last month, notes that there are now 19 immersion centres and three secondary centres across 10 counties in Wales, with counties providing late immersion support for learners across a range of ages. Also, last month, Estyn published a thematic report on Welsh immersion education, and this lists the Welsh language immersion centres in Wales and makes clear that there is a lack of immersion centres in 12 local authorities—and even where there are such centres, the overall number of the centres is small.
As the Minister has acknowledged, late immersion provision is vital as we work towards creating a million Welsh speakers, and even though £2.2 million has been announced to support immersion in the Welsh language, and eight local authority areas have created their first late immersion centres, there is still a great need in this regard across Wales. So, what progress has been made, Minister, following this, in terms of increasing the number of immersion centres across local authorities in Wales, and is the £2.2 million allocated going to be enough to meet the need in a way that is equal and consistent across Wales?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, the question—. I thank the Member for the recognition of that investment of £2.2 million this year. That investment, of course, is a major step forward. I have committed to ensuring that we support the immersion sector because of the crucial role that immersion has in providing equal access to Welsh-medium education.
There are a number of opportunities here. What we have seen with the allocation of the grant of just over £2 million is that there is interest in all parts of Wales to increase provision. Not all authorities are in the same place in terms of their pathway towards that. Some are innovating and leading the way, and providing an example perhaps to other parts of Wales so that they can learn those lessons. And that's encouraging in and of itself, but every local authority has shown an interest, but perhaps the interest differs from one area to another. Some are expanding provision, others are employing more staff so that they can start on that journey, but the picture of progress is shared across Wales.

Heledd Fychan AS: Diolch, Weinidog. On a similar theme, Samuel Kurtz referenced his constituent earlier, describing ALN as 'a postcode lottery', and, as you will be fully aware, one of the core aims of the Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Act 2018 is for a bilingual system. Concerns were raised during the Act's journey through the Senedd, primarily on the availability of ALN services through the medium of Welsh and the capacity of the system to meet demand. That is to say whether the necessary workforce is in place to ensure equal access to Welsh-medium ALN provision.
In terms of current provision, where more specialist support is required, such as that from educational psychologists or speech and language therapists, this is not always available in Welsh, due to a lack of sufficient numbers of trained professionals in a given local area. Again, this differs between different local authorities. I welcome the funding that's been provided for ALN, including the £18 million additional funding for this financial year, but I'd like to ask the Minister: how much investment is being put into ensuring that the ALN system is truly bilingual, by increasing the capacity of educational centres and boosting the Welsh-medium ALN workforce?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I think the point the Member makes about the—. Clearly, it is essential to be able to provide additional learning needs services and support in both Welsh and in English. So, the question about recruitment is part of a broader set of challenges that we've discussed previously in the Chamber, and that is part of the recruitment plan that we will be bringing forward in the next few weeks.
In relation to the question of educational psychologists in particular, we've been keen to make sure that the funding provided to support that study in Wales also encourages those who practice it through study to remain practising in Wales, and we hope that will attract Welsh speakers as well obviously, and to make sure they continue to work and practise in Wales, because the challenge that the Member describes in that area is a genuine challenge.
In relation to—.

Jeremy Miles AC: In looking at the resources available to support provision, as part of their Welsh in education strategic plans, it is a requirement on all local authorities to describe what they are doing in order to ensure that resources are available through the medium of Welsh, based on thereview carried out by all authorities under the additional learning needs legislation. So, that's part of the WESPs. And, more broadly, work is already in train to ensure a licensing agreement with commercial publishing companies to get Welsh versions of ALN resources, such as dyslexia tests and speech and language therapy resources. So, that work is ongoing at the moment.

School Financial Reserves

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 3. Will the Minister make a statement on the level of financial reserves held by schools? OQ57873

Jeremy Miles AC: The high level of reserves last year came as no surprise, due to many activities being paused and additional funding provided during the pandemic. We know that this is a temporary position, and we support local authorities in working with their schools to manage any surplus balances flexibly in the current circumstances.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Yes, they're quite concerning, really, when the latest data on the level of reserves held by schools shows an apparent sharp rise from £32 million, which is £70 per pupil, in March 2020, to £181 million, which is £393 per pupil in March 2021. These are reserves. That money is sitting there. Now, as we anticipate the arrival of Ukrainian children to Wales, and with these funds in these bank accounts within this area of schooling, is it likely that some of these reserves could be freed up to accommodate young Ukrainians coming to Wales, so that we can ensure, as Members here, their well-being, being in our care, and that our own schooling system is not put under any undue pressure?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I think the Member will be very well aware of why schools are carrying reserves. We've had significant challenges over the last two years—[Interruption.]—and it has been our judgment as a Government that we should continue funding schools in order to provide the flexibility that they need to respond to the pressures of COVID in the interests of their learners. So, the additional funding into the system will have affected those balances, and we expect to see that position continue when we have the next report, which I think will be in October this year.
I think schools have been prudent in their approach to this, and I think local authorities are able to make judgments as to what is appropriate in the individual circumstances of each school. And schools that have those surpluses will, and should be, obviously, subject to ongoing monitoring by their local authorities to ensure that approved plans to spend those balances are delivered within timescales agreed with the authority.
In relation to the point that the Member rightly makes about making sure that we are able to provide the education that children coming to Wales from Ukraine are able to get, there is a lot of work going on at the moment with our partners in local government to understand how best to do that. Obviously, which parts of Wales people end up coming to live in, and therefore the needs of children in those areas for local schooling, is something that is obviously outside our control, and not entirely clear at this point, but there is a very live set of discussions happening across the school system to make sure that we can support those children as they come to Wales.

Pupils with Additional Learning Needs

Mark Isherwood AC: 4. How is the Welsh Government ensuring support for pupils with additional learning needs in North Wales? OQ57868

Jeremy Miles AC: Local authorities are responsible for securing suitable education for children and young people, including those with additional learning needs. And the new ALN system will drive improvements in the way learners across Wales are supported to ensure that they can achieve their full potential.

Mark Isherwood AC: Well, I recently met a Flintshire mum and dad whose son was denied autism diagnosis because he doesn't present autistic traits in school, masking and suppressing most of his tics and anxieties. They told me:
'He's well behaved in school, but will have a meltdown when he comes home after having a bad day.'
The same day, I wrote to you on behalf of a different constituent whose daughter with similar behaviours is under the care of Flintshire County Council, contributing to the shocking reality that Wales has the highest proportion of children in the UK being cared for by the state.
I've acted over many years and I'm still currently acting in a representative capacity on behalf of numerous separate families who have encountered similar barriers. Each case involves children with lifelong neurodevelopmental conditions, including autism spectrum conditions, denied diagnosis, and/or understanding and support because of coping and masking strategies by the pupils to conceal their autistic traits in school, copying the behaviours of those around them to fit in, with anxiety then kicking in when they arrive home. And each case has involved implied or actual parent blaming. When are you going to act to end this tragic scandal, because too many of these families are in agony?

Jeremy Miles AC: I share the Member's concern about the circumstances that he's described in his question, and, as he knows, the purpose of the reforms that we're introducing is to be able to address the very real range of challenges that he's described in his question. These are very significant reforms, and I know the Member has previously challenged us in relation to the support for the system to deliver these reforms effectively. I hope he'll acknowledge that, over the course of the last six months or so, we've been able to provide further resources into the system to be able to respond to the kinds of challenges that he's describing in his question. And I've been continuing to do that in recent weeks, both in relation to the impact of the pandemic, but also the costs of the transformation itself in the system.

Play Time and Mental Health

Joel James MS: 5. What assessment has the Government made of the impact of play time during the school day on children's mental health? OQ57883

Jeremy Miles AC: In March 2021 we published statutory guidance for schools on supporting the well-being needs of the whole school population. The guidance promotes and recognises the impact that freely chosen, self-directed play makes to children’s health and well-being, and our work will be subject to full evaluation in coming years.

Joel James MS: Thank you, Minister. As you will be aware, play is fundamental to children's health and well-being, and a necessary part of their social development because it helps develop skills in coping with challenge, facing uncertainty, and how to be flexible and adaptable to different circumstances. Since 1995, research has shown that break times in the school day have been reduced per week by up to 45 minutes for children aged between five and seven, and reduced by 65 minutes for those aged between 11 and 16. This has resulted in eight out of 10 children now having less than one hour of physical activity per day. Research has also shown that, outside school, children are now 50 per cent less likely to meet up with friends in person, with 31 per cent of children reporting that they seldom get to meet peers and friends, compared to 15 per cent in 2006. I'm sure my colleagues will agree that trends like this are worrying because they alter the way children develop into adulthood and can have unforeseen consequences, particularly in terms of mental health. Minister, firstly, what assessment has the Welsh Government made of the health implications due to the loss of playtime for schoolchildren, and what plans do you have in place to increase playtime for children across Wales? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: That's a set of very important points that the Member is making in his supplementary question. He will know that, as part of their play sufficiency duties, under the 2010 Measure, every local authority will be submitting to the Deputy Minister for Social Services their play sufficiency assessments this year, which will enable us to undertake a review of those. Play Wales is already working with local authorities in preparation for those assessments and the early action plan. In recognition of the extra burdens on authorities, we've extended the deadline in order to allow those assessments to be brought forward somewhat later than otherwise they would have been, to reflect the impact in school. We've asked Play Wales to scope playtime interventions in schools, and they'll be taking forward a programme of support, to help schools take a whole-school approach to provide the children's right to play. He will also know, of course, of the work that the Deputy Minister for Social Services has been funding in relation to the Playworks holiday project, the Summer of Fun, and the Winter of Well-being, which comes to an end tomorrow.

Buffy Williams MS: Minister, last week, I met with Ruby, who is a sixth form pupil at Ysgol Gyfun Cwm Rhondda and a young member of the Senedd for Rhondda. I know the Minister will be visiting the school soon, following the exciting plans to build a brand-new, twenty-first century school, and I'm sure Ruby would love to give you a tour. We discussed a range of issues relating to day-to-day school life, but the one clear message throughout was the significant effect poverty has on our young people. Poverty, undoubtedly, affects home and school life, from digital inclusion anxieties to period poverty. This takes its toll on our young people's mental health. What measures is the education Minister taking to support the mental health of the most disadvantaged young people in Rhondda, especially now through the cost-of-living crisis?

Jeremy Miles AC: It's a very, very important question that the Member raises. She will know that we published our framework for a whole-school approach to mental health and well-being last year. And, this year, I'm pleased to say that the budget for that has been significantly extended in order to be able to provide additional counselling, to be able to provide an extension of the in-school child and adolescent mental health services in-reach support, as well as to train teachers to be able to identify well-being and mental health needs in their pupils, and also to provide support directly to those pupils themselves. She will also know, of course, of the work that we are doing to trial additional activities in schools at the moment, and the reports that we are getting in real time from those trials is that they are very beneficial in terms of the well-being and mental health, perhaps, often, of some of our most disadvantaged pupils. So, we look forward very much to seeing the outcomes of those trials in a few weeks' time.

School Merger Plans in Penarth

Andrew RT Davies AC: 6. Will the Minister make a statement on the merger of Evenlode Primary School and Bute Cottage Nursery School in Penarth? OQ57893

Jeremy Miles AC: The objection period for the proposal by the Vale of Glamorgan Council ended on 16 March. In accordance with the school organisation code, the council must consider objections conscientiously alongside arguments in respect of the proposal and determine whether or not to approve the proposal within 16 weeks of that date.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Minister, as part of, obviously, the proposals is a consultation exercise, undertaken by—and I declare an interest as a member of the local authority, the Vale of Glamorgan Council—the council. In this particular case, 238 responses came in to that consultation. Over 70 per cent of those responses were supporting the current status quo and not to change the current dynamic of the two schools. So, what weight, as Minister, would you place on the consultation exercise and in particular any authority, but in this case the Vale of Glamorgan Council, paying due regard to the overwhelming wishes of the community to keep the status quo when it comes to these two important provisions in their community?

Jeremy Miles AC: As the Member said, the purpose of a consultation is to elicit the views of the public and others in relation to a particular reorganisation proposal, and the school organisation code of course sets out what the council needs to take into account when it receives those consultation responses. As I know that he's aware, proposals which that either approved or rejected by a local authority can then be referred to Welsh Minister for consideration if some limited parties decide to take that step within the 28-day period from the decision. So, given that Ministers have a role in that statutory process, I can't comment specifically on the merits or otherwise of that proposal, but the school organisation code itself is very clear, I think.

Pupils Living in Poverty

Alun Davies AC: 7. What assistance is the Minister putting in place to support pupils who are living in poverty over the Easter school holidays? OQ57885

Jeremy Miles AC: Tackling the impact of poverty is a key priority for us. As part of a wider package of support to help struggling families, an additional £4.4 million in 2022-23 has been made available to support the cost of holiday meals for free-school-meal-eligible pupils during the Easter holidays in this academic year.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to you for that, Minister. We all want children to look forward to their holidays. We want them to look forward to spending time with their families. We want them to look forward to being able to relax without a care in world, to be able to enjoy themselves over the holiday period. It's an absolute tragedy—it's an absolute tragedy—that there are children that you represent, that I represent, that we all represent, who look towards these holidays with a sense of fear and dread, and parents and families in this country who'll be losing sleep over the next couple of weeks knowing of the financial pressures that they will be facing over the holidays, which are far more intense than during term time. It is all the more tragic that this is happening because we have a UK Government that really doesn't care about the impact of their policies and the policies that they've been pursuing on some of the poorest and most vulnerable people in this country. Minister, I'm grateful that the Welsh Government has stepped into this breach and is providing help and support for some of the poorest families in this country. Can you guarantee to this Parliament this afternoon that this Government will continue to provide all the support it can to children and to families in this country to ensure that the spectre of poverty doesn't disfigure their lives in the way it's disfigured the lives of generations before us because of a UK Government that doesn't care about them and their communities?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Alun Davies for that, and I think the bleak situation he describes is the reality for constituents of his and of mine and for other colleagues in the Chamber today. This Government, the Welsh Government, will do everything that we can to support families in Wales. You will know of the announcements that the Minister for Social Justice made a few weeks ago. You will recall the announcement I made a week ago in relation to supporting families who need particular support with the costs of school uniform, school kit, school trips and so on. But, at the end of the day, there is a responsibility on the United Kingdom Government to recognise the consequence of the choices it is making. And we all know that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when he should have been looking out for people who are struggling the most, chose to look away.

James Evans MS: Minister, sport and physical activity play a huge part in developing young children, and for some of the most vulnerable children in our communities living in poverty being in school is the only opportunity they have to access sport and sports facilities. So, Minister, can you outline what support the Welsh Government will be putting in place during the Easter holidays to support those children in poverty to have great access to sports facilities? Diolch, Llywydd.

Jeremy Miles AC: The Member will know of the announcement that I made in relation to community-focused schools last week, which recognises the important point that he makes, which is that one of the key contributions that we can make to support disadvantaged learners in their schooling is to enable schools to have a community focus in what they do and how they operate. And he will have heard me say that we are investing £25 million in this financial year to help schools expand their offer to the community, and that will also include funding to support schools in their outreach to families in their school community who are particularly disadvantaged, where their children have challenges with their attendance. So, this Government will do everything we can to support disadvantaged learners in our schools. What we need is a partner at the other end of the M4 who is also prepared to do that.

Healthy Relationships

Sarah Murphy AS: 8. How is the Welsh Government promoting healthy relationships in the school curriculum? OQ57899

Jeremy Miles AC: There is a strong focus on developing healthy relationships within the health and well-being area of the new curriculum. Becoming healthy, confident individuals is one of the four purposes of the new curriculum, and learners will be supported to understand that healthy relationships are fundamental to our well-being.

Sarah Murphy AS: Thank you, Minister. I also really want to thank you for your recent trip to Coychurch Primary School in Bridgend to see pupils take part in a Spectrum Cymru session to learn about feeling safe and expressing emotions. As a relatively new Member of the Senedd, one of my favourite parts of my role is visiting schools and talking to young people about their priorities, and in the last few weeks I have visited both Coychurch Primary School with you and Porthcawl Primary School, and it was a delight to hear about their projects around inclusiveness, from learning about LGBT rights to Black Lives Matter. The world is changing, and it is our job to provide the tools to enable young people to understand the world around them by celebrating difference, rather than fearing it. Understanding healthy relationships is crucial if we are to build a tolerant and inclusive Wales, and I also believe that including healthy relationships in the new curriculum can play a major role in tackling societal issues such as misogyny. From understanding what makes a healthy relationship to consent, children of all ages should be respected and made aware of boundaries. The tools we provide for our children will inevitably shape the society they grow into. Therefore, could the Minister inform us how he is working with the Minister for Social Justice to tackle these very issues, such as misogyny and consent, through the new curriculum, please?

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes. We strongly believe that every young person should have the right to access information, support and learning that keeps them safe from harm, and that includes—and I know that the Member has an interest in this area in particular—online safety and knowing what's right and wrong so that they can raise issues with responsible adults. On the particular point that she raises in her question, the new mandatory code for relationships and sexuality education and the guidance that goes with that underpin learners' rights to enjoy fulfilling, healthy and safe relationships throughout their lives, and contributes to the aims and objectives set out by the Minister for Social Justice in the new draft violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy. I enjoyed very much the visit that we made to Coychurch Primary School, and I think it was great to see the work that Spectrum is doing, focusing on healthy relationships. I know that she shared my excitement at seeing the way in which the children really embraced and engaged with the learning that they had. And I think, as well as the boys and girls learning from it, I felt certainly that there were some things that we as grown-ups could learn from it as well.

Altaf Hussain AS: Good afternoon, Minister. The Welsh Government has been clear that RSE should support learners to develop the knowledge, skills and values to understand how relationships and sexuality shape their own lives and the lives of others. Learners should be equipped and enabled to seek support on issues related to RSE and to educate themselves and others. On developing healthy relationships, I would like to know how Welsh Ministers will ensure that we do more to support cultural understanding and respect, recognising the beauty of our diversity. Thank you, Minister.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I think that's a very important question, and the basis on which the relationship and sexuality education code and guidance were developed was an inclusive process, which involved a number of groups and community representatives, so that we could make certain that the code and resources, when they are in our schools, are helpful and supportive and deliver the outcomes that I know that he cares about very much as well. RSE has a positive and protective role in our young people's education, and I think, as I was saying in my answer to Sarah Murphy, when you see the kind of activities in classrooms that are there to support our learners understand the nature of their own rights, but also the importance of healthy relationships, seeing that delivered in a very inclusive way is very rewarding and very reassuring as well.

And finally, question 9, Jane Dodds.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you very much, Llywydd, and good afternoon, Minister.

School Closures in Powys

Jane Dodds AS: 9. Will the Minister make a statement on the impact of recently announced school closures in Powys on the Welsh Government's targets to expand Welsh-medium education? OQ57888

Jeremy Miles AC: Powys commits to improving access to Welsh-medium education across all key stages, and their recently submitted Welsh in education strategic plans propose to introduce new Welsh-medium primary provision across four areas within the first five years, contributing to their overall target to increase the percentage of learners in Welsh-medium education to at least 36 per cent by 2032.

Jane Dodds AS: Diolch, Weinidog. You will be aware of the decision of Powys County Council to close rural schools in the area, which has been a devastating blow for many communities. I am increasingly concerned about the impact this so-called transformation programme will have on Welsh-medium education in Powys, so thank you for your response. The commitment of many of these rural schools to Welsh education is impressive, and I know you share my concerns that this programme of closing schools may mean that these communities will have the Welsh language decimated and, potentially, disappearing. So, may I ask what additional attention you'll be giving to ensure that Welsh education programmes can thrive in rural schools? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, just with the caveat that I gave to Andrew R.T. Davies about being able to comment on specific proposals, on the broader question that the Member makes about Welsh-medium education in Powys, I should say that I'm currently assessing all of the Welsh in education strategic plans at the moment. I'll be making an announcement on whether to approve, approve with modifications or reject those plans before the end of the summer term. She may know that Powys has committed, as I mentioned earlier, to those four new Welsh-medium primary provisions that will benefit Crickhowell, Hay-on-Wye, Presteigne and the north Powys area. There is also a commitment in the WESPto supporting dual stream English-medium primary schools to move along the language continuum, and to do that using immersion practices. There's a pilot in Ysgol y Cribarth that I'm sure she will be aware of, which is a great example of this, and I'm looking forward to visiting there in May. I've also, as we were discussing earlier in this session, announced £2.2 million in the Welsh immersion grant last September. Powys has benefited from that grant to pilot a new Welsh-language immersion centre at Ysgol Dafydd Llwyd in Newtown. The Welsh in education strategic plan in Powys is ambitious, as it is in other parts of Wales, and as Minister I fully expect those ambitions to be met.

I thank the Minister.

3. Topical Questions

The next item therefore is the topical questions. The first question is to be answered by the Minister for Health and Social Services, and is to be asked by Russell George.

Grange University Hospital

Russell George AC: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on the Grange University Hospital’s declaration of a black alert last night? TQ615

Eluned Morgan AC: In the light of exceptional pressures and despite efforts to stabilise its services, Aneurin Bevan University Health Board declared a business continuity incident at the Grange University Hospital on the afternoon of 29 March. This is the highest level of escalation available, and clearly indicates the severe pressure being experienced by our health and care services.

Russell George AC: Thank you for your answer, Minister. For a major hospital to declare a black alert on a weekday evening, of course, indicates that the NHS in Wales is ill-prepared to support those who need it the most. I'm particularly concerned, of course, for the staff at the hospital, who are under significant pressure, and, I'm sure, will be feeling a sense of being let down themselves. I would like to know, Minister, the urgent assessment that you have made of the black alert at the Grange hospital's A&E department. The hospital was, of course, supposed to be the flagship hospital, and it was of course opened early. So, I would ask you for your assessment on whether it was correct to open the hospital early. Understaffing has been an ongoing and huge issue at the hospital since it opened. There have been sustained reports of understaffingsince the hospital first opened. So, can I ask you, Minister, did you see this coming, and what support can you now offer? What is your plan to support the hospital and particularly support the workforce that are under so much pressure at the hospital?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. There is a difficult—an extremely difficult—situation that's confronting not just Aneurin Bevan health board but also health boards across the whole of Wales at the moment. We've always been open about the challenges that NHS Wales and emergency departments are under, and they're under pressure like they haven't seen during the whole of the pandemic. COVID rates have never been higher in our communities. We have 1,468 people in hospital with COVID. That's the highest number in a year. During the last six weeks, we've been at the highest level of bed occupancy in the NHS since the beginning of the pandemic. We have 900 more patients in hospital today than we did a year ago. Was it right to open the hospital early? Damn right it was, because imagine if we hadn't. We needed those beds. This is not a situation that is unique to Wales, but it's absolutely clear that this is a pressure that's facing people across the United Kingdom as well.
One of the issues that we are having to confront is the fact that there are very high numbers of patients who are ready to be discharged from hospital but they're unable to do so because of the fragility of our care services. I know that the Deputy Minister for Social Services is working incredibly hard on making sure that we get a better flow through our systems. The fact is that in Aneurin Bevan we have around 270 patients who are ready to leave, but it's been impossible for many of them to leave because 70 of our care homes in Aneurin Bevan were closed because of COVID. Can you prepare for those kinds of things? We have been trying to prepare, but we are in an extremely difficult situation at the moment and I think it is absolutely right for us to understand the kind of pressure that our staff is under. And on top of that, let's think about the staff, because actually, a lot of them are going down with COVID as well, which obviously increases the pressure even more on those who are left in the hospitals.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you, Minister, for your responses so far.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: During my numerous street surgeries throughout the region, a common complaint has been the service that patients have experienced at the Grange. This has been the case across the region. It seems people have difficulties in terms of site accessibility, the lack of adequate public transport, and the long waits to be seen when they eventually get there. Things have clearly come to a head in the last few days. Having a brand new facility is all well and good, but doesn't the brief history of the Grange hospital show that a new hospital is nothing without its staff? The NHS's greatest strength is its people, and we are in danger of forcing them out of the sector unless we improve their working conditions. We also risk the health of patients wherever crisis points like this are reached. What lessons have been learnt from the opening of the Grange, and what plans are in place to put the hospital on a healthier footing? This situation must be rectified as soon as possible, for the sake of patients and the staff. Diolch yn fawr.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr. Of course there were lessons to be learnt from the opening of the Grange. We opened it because, frankly, we were in the middle of a pandemic and we needed all the help that we could get. So, it was absolutely the right thing to do, but obviously it meant that we didn't have time to do the preparations that we would have done had we not been in that situation. I'm very pleased to say that the Royal College of Physicians made a visit to the Grange University Hospital a while ago. They were quite critical, frankly, of the services there, but they have now produced a follow-up review that's been published today, and they are actually endorsing a lot of the actions that have been undertaken by the health board. So, I'm very pleased to see that.
What else can we do to help? Well, frankly, we can all help in these circumstances. We are in a situation where we all need to see if there's anything more we can do as citizens. Our priority, of course, is to ensure the safe and efficient delivery of healthcare services to anyone, but I would appeal to members of the public: if you are able to help with the discharge of your family from hospital if they are ready to be discharged, then please help us out and come and help us to discharge them from hospital and give them that support, so that we can get more urgent cases into the hospital at this extreme time.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to you, Minister, for those responses. It's important that we recognise what is actually happening in the Grange, rather than simply listening to hearsay. There are some significant successes from the centralisation of services in the Grange, and I've spoken to constituents in the last week who have been through some excellent treatment and have received superb levels of care within the Grange. I think it's important that we recognise that and recognise the hard work that is going on in the Grange and the other hospitals in the Aneurin Bevan network.
The issues that I'm dealing with are the issues, Minister, that I've brought to your attention already in the last few weeks, which are about unscheduled care, which are about emergency access, and those issues are very real issues. There is an issue with the ability of the Grange to deal with the pressures it's under, and there is a significant issue where sometimes some very vulnerable patients have not received the treatment that they require urgently. I brought a constituent's situation to your attention last week, where she did not receive the treatment that she needed, and that was a very urgent cancer requirement. So, we need to look at the reality of what is happening in the Grange and deal with the real issues.
Minister, is it possible for the Welsh Government to provide the Aneurin Bevan health board with resources, or work with the health board, to enable them to overcome the issues that you've described that we're all familiar with, that will enable them to deal with the current pressures, to enable them to build the sort of sustainable services that we require in the hospital and in the network of hospitals, but also to ensure that we have the different health boards that provide services to people in Blaenau Gwent talking to each other, so that where a patient is taken, for example, to Prince Charles Hospital, that their treatment plans are recognised by staff in Prince Charles, and that they are able to receive the treatment that they require?
Like others in the Chamber this afternoon, I think we should all pay tribute to the hard work that is being done by members of staff in the Grange under the most extraordinary pressures that the Minister has already described. I think as politicians, what we need to do is to ensure that we put in place the structures that are required to support those staff, to support those services, and to deliver the treatment that people need and require at the time they need it.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Alun. I think you're absolutely right, it's important that we don't just act on hearsay, but there are lots of individual patient experiences that are frankly heartbreaking. I've received e-mails over the weekend with people just desperate, frankly, because they have been waiting for hours on end.
We are in an extreme situation at the moment. I'm confident that we won't continue to be in this situation, but that's where we're at at the moment. I think it's really important for people to understand that the NHS is still very much open for business. We're seeing 200,000 patients a month still, in terms of outpatients. I think it's important also to respond to the fact that actually, the RCP is saying that things are improving. It's just that we are in these intensely difficult situations at the moment.
The flow is part of the problem. How do people get access to A&E if all the beds are full? As you've heard, because of the situation in terms of getting people out of hospitals because those care homes are shut, that is creating a real problem for us. It's very difficult to knowwhat do you do in those circumstances, and that's why we are appealing to people to come and fetch their loved ones from hospital and look after them if they can, because we can get them out of hospital, and we can help support other members of their family who may need more urgent treatment as well.
We have given significant additional support to the ambulance service. We've recruited hundreds of new people in our service. We've given £250 million extra to relieve pressure last year. We're giving £170 million additional funding in the next financial year. And we are, actually—. Aneurin Bevan is being absolutely clear that, under these extreme circumstances, they are diverting patients and helping patients to go to other health boards that are perhaps not quite under the same pressure.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Back in the autumn when I was taken ill, I spent 22 hours in an A&E department, and I know the pressure full well that staff feel, but also the hopelessness that patients feel as well. I'd be most grateful to understand from the Minister the staffing ratios in the A&E department at the Grange, and if she hasn't got that information, could she provide that in a letter form that could be placed in the library? And importantly, on those staff ratios, how many are core staff and how many are bank? Because the one thing that became evident to me in the A&E department that I was in for a considerable period of time was that there were a lot of bank staff there that weren't familiar with the settings and the procedures that that department required to use on a day-to-day basis, and that caused a lot of problems in discharging and the flow of patients that the Minister's referred to. So, could she provide that information, accepting if she hasn't got that with her today, she could place it in the library and we could all see it?

Eluned Morgan AC: Absolutely. And, no, I don't have the specific information, but, obviously, I'd be willing to look at that. There are always issues about pressures in hospital, and if people are off sick, obviously—and there are a lot of people off sick; we all know somebody who is suffering with COVID at the moment—clearly that is affecting hospital staff as well, which is why you then have to go to those bank staff.
What we're trying to do, and we have been doing for a long time now, is recruiting additional staff. We've recruited 53 per cent more staff than we did 20 years ago. That is a massive increase. You look at our recruitment and our training when it comes to nurses and midwives—significant increases: 73 per cent and 92 per cent; huge increases in the number of people that we're training. But it is difficult, and we've never seen pressure like this before.

Delyth Jewell AC: Minister, since the Grange opened, it's been plagued with overcrowding and long waits, and, as we've been hearing, this isn't fair to patients or staff. The fact that there were 14-hour waits in A&E last night is indicative of a serious problem. I know, last October—you've been referring to the fact that there were reports of trainee doctors and consultants being scared to go into work, which the Royal College of Physicians was reporting. When other hospitals like the miners' hospital in Caerphilly closed, patients were promised that there would be no disruption to their care, but overcentralisation of services is leading to just that. So, we have staff who are, at times, near breaking point, and patients who aren't getting the care they need.
But, Minister, as well as what you're saying that the Government obviously will be doing to change this, you've just said that we all know someone who is suffering with COVID at the moment. Now, I'm asking this sincerely, I'm not asking this glibly at all: do you really think that now is the time to remove legal requirements over self-isolation and COVID mask wearing in retail and transport? Won't more COVID cases make a dire situation even worse?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. Well, I would urge you—and you're quite right, there was some extreme criticism about what happened in the Grange by places like the Royal College of Physicians—to read the follow-up review, which does suggest that there have been many improvements since that initial inspection took place. I would also ask people to make use of the now all-Wales 111 telephone services, which provide access to out-of-hours and urgent primary care services, making sure that you get the right support at the right place at the right time. So, there are alternatives to A&E, and it's really important that people make use of those.
Also, you talked about the legal requirements. Well, let me tell you that your sister party in Scotland never had a legal requirement when it came to self-isolation, and it seems to have worked quite well for them. So, we're actually in a position now where we are giving responsibility back to the public. And I've got to tell you, in Wales, the public have been marvellous. They have followed our advice, and we are now trusting them to continue to do the good work that they know should be done. When they know rates are at the highest levels within their community, I'm sure they will continue to do the right thing, to wear face coverings when appropriate, to make sure that they're testing if appropriate and to make sure, also, that they're self-isolating if they catch COVID.

Finally, Jane Dodds.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you, Llywydd, and thank you, Minister, and thank you to Russell for asking this question.

Jane Dodds AS: It's just a very short point. Many residents in south Powys attend Nevill Hall Hospital in Aneurin Bevan health board in Abergavenny. In the statement last night from Aneurin Bevan on the Grange, there was a recommendation that patients are diverted to other hospitals like Nevill Hall. I'm sure this has been considered, but could you just reassure us that additional support is being offered to hospitals like Nevill Hall that will be put under additional stress in the short term from the situation in the Grange? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. Well, there is stress across the whole system. The Grange is experiencing it in particular, but this is a stress that is happening across the whole of Wales, indeed across the whole of the United Kingdom. And I'm informed by my officials that sites, for example, in England, also declared major incidents last night, including Hereford hospital and the Royal Shrewsbury Hospital, which led to handover delays of up to 20 hours for Welsh Ambulance Services NHS Trust vehicles conveying patients from Wales to those sites. So, it's not just in Wales that these pressures are happening, they are happening across the whole of the United Kingdom. Obviously, we will give as much support as we can to the system, but there are levels of escalation that the health boards know that they need to use and implement, and we're at a particular level of escalation in Aneurin Bevan, which is the highest level of escalation, and that means that they stop doing the routine work and they focus on their really urgent work. And I'm sure that you'll understand the need to do that.

I thank the Minister. The next question is to be answered by the Minister for Economy and is to be asked by Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Orthios

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 2. Will the Minister make a statement on the announcement that Orthios has been placed in administration and the impact of that on the 120 local jobs? TQ616

Vaughan Gething AC: Apologies, I don't have my translation, but it's written down. Can I get a headset for the follow-up? Sorry.

Jane Hutt AC: Do you want to borrow mine?

Vaughan Gething AC: No, it'll go in my ears.
Thank you for the question. I understand that this will be a deeply concerning time for workers, their families and the wider Holyhead community. My officials have reached out to the company and stand ready to offer support to those affected at this distressing time.
I'll have to wait for the headset for the moment, because he asked the question in Welsh.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: It's okay.

I think the question is in English.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: This has come as a terrible blow to the island's economy, and I'll say more about that in a moment, but more immediately, of course, to the workforce, and my thoughts are with them today. One told me they'd been informed through a WhatsApp message group. A member of my team has been taking part this afternoon in a meeting of a taskforce set up to help workers, and I'm grateful to Citizens Advice for convening that, to Anglesey council and other agencies for the part that they're playing too.
Now, one obvious priority is to make sure that staff get paid. I understand that it was tomorrow that they were due to be paid. Some say they won't be able to pay their rents next month. Now, will the Minister make this a priority in discussions with administrators and will he outline other steps that Government officials are ready to take to support the workforce at this time?The other element here is the importance of this site—the old Anglesey Aluminium site and its jetty for cruise liners, a rail hub, a power hub, so many aspects to it. We're told that the problems we're facing today are linked to the financing of the Orthios project. We'll no doubt come to understand more and be able to talk more about those issues in due course. So, (a) can I ask the Minister if he will meet with me to discuss the current situation and the future of the site? And (b) can I have an undertaking that no stone will be left unturned, working with Orthios, its investors and other partners to ensure that the potential of this site can be maximised and in a sustainable way? There have been many questions asked and real frustrations at the pace of development since Orthios took over the site, but more recently, there had been investment and jobs created. But in seeking a way forward now and seeking the re-employment of the workers very, very soon, we owe it to them to ensure that there is genuine sustainability to development going forward.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question and the series of points. Starting with what I said in my opening response, my thoughts are with workers at what will be a distressing time. It's always difficult when you lose a job when you don't want to, but in particular to lose a job in dramatic circumstances, where you're unsighted and not forewarned. And there's a good reason why employment law in this country requires employers to consult with the workforce before redundancies are made. Now, we've had other examples of really poor employment practice. I'm keen to understand what has happened here. Has there really been an event that has taken place so rapidly that there could not have been consultation? I'd be very surprised at that. And I think that also turns on your second point about pay. In a former life, what I used to know at the redundancy payments office was the sorts of claims you could have if you didn't receive pay, but, actually, that isn't the same as receiving your contractual pay, and workers could well lose out on money if they do need to fall back on the statutory provision that is available as well. And that often takes time, and that is almost always not likely to happen unless people do have the support of their trade union. I understand Unite is the on-site union. It's worth pointing out that Welsh Government officials are also looking to have conversations with the trade union, to gain their understanding of what has happened on the site too.
On the point about no stone being unturned, I'm more than happy to confirm that that will certainly be the approach of this Government, working together with the council and the Department for Work and Pensions. There's a multi-agency team that is already being co-ordinated to look at the different sorts of support that the two national Governments can provide, together with the council, to support workers to look to find alternative and sustainable employment.
And I think that goes on to your final point, where I'm happy to meet the Member to discuss not just the current situation, but, actually, the longer term for this site. It is a key employment site, with the power connections and our ambitions for the future economy in this area, with good employment that we think could and should be created, and I'm keen that the site isn't lost to fruitful future development, as well as trying to address the current situation. My office will be happy to be in touch to arrange a convenient time for us to meet.

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you to the Member, also, from Ynys Môn for putting this really important question forward today—not just the effect in Holyhead and Ynys Môn, but the north Wales region, because of the significance and the potential significance of the site. The announcement that Orthios has been placed into administration is clearly extremely worrying, and I fully share the concerns made by the Member for Ynys Môn, and by you, Minister, as well. This will and has come as a shock to many people, and it's so sad seeing the potential of many people losing their jobs. And the significance of the site has been mentioned already, and I'd certainly like to join the calls from the Member for Ynys Môn to see a real clear plan made for that site, because the opportunities are incredible there, and it's a shame they haven't been realised yet. There's a huge amount of work that can be done.
But, Minister, you know you have obviously responsibility in terms of support and advice for business growth and development of business, business information, business support, so in light of this, I'd be grateful to understand what support the Welsh Government has provided to Orthios over recent months, before this announcement was made, and what steps had you made to reach out to them over recent months as well. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, there have been regular attempts to reach out to the company, and we've had conversations with them about the jetty and the position for cruise ships. You will recall that we reached an alternative arrangement to make sure that the season wasn't cancelled last year. Our challenge is in ensuring that the conversation is a genuine dialogue rather than an offer of support, where there isn't—. We can't force the company to take up support, so they do need to respond to us, and my officials are waiting to hear from the company. There have been regular attempts to call the company over the recent months and recent days, and I'd say again we'd want the company to engage with us on what they propose to do, what they propose to do with the workforce, and how we can actually look at the site to make sure that the significant opportunities—and I recognise right across north Wales, and across parties for this site—are actually realised, and I don't want to lose sight of either of those, the immediate position, but also the longer term potential for the site.

Jack Sargeant AC: I thank the Member, Rhun ap Iorwerth, for tabling this important question today, and I'm very much in line with what he has said already. Minister, can I slightly change the question a bit? And the announcement is clearly worrying for many individuals and many families across north Wales, and these are quite clearly tough times, and it's very difficult to absorb shocks like this in the current climate. But can I ask you what support and advice the Welsh Government can offer to businesses who are owed money by Orthios, like the one in my own constituency that has contacted me and Carolyn Thomas, in her role as Member of the Senedd for North Wales, just this week?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you. It's an important point. It's often the case that, when larger businesses do cease or significantly reduce their operation, there are often other businesses in their supply chain who are left in financial distress as well. So, the ripple effect from a significant event like this can be sometimes hidden. So, I'm grateful to the Member for raising it.
In terms of practical support, I'd be very interested if he could share the details with us. Other businesses, they can always contact Business Wales in terms of the advice and support that we can provide to make sure they get to the right point, depending on what's happened in the supply chain and what the contractual arrangements are in place between them and the main company. But I'm acutely aware this will likely affect a number of other businesses, not just the more than 100 workers who appear to have lost their jobs overnight.

I thank the Minister.

4. 90-second Statements

The next item therefore is the 90-second statements, and the first statement is from Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Sorry, hearing aids and masks don't go together.

I know. And glasses.

Mark Isherwood AC: This week marks World Autism Acceptance Week, which aims to help change attitudes towards autistic people. The National Autistic Society, which is marking its sixtieth year, wants everyone to understand autism better, and highlights the top five things that autistic people and families themselves want the public to know: that autistic people may feel anxiety about changes or unexpected events; experience sensory sensitivity, being either under or over sensitive to sounds, smells, light, taste and touch; they may need extra time to process information such as questions or instructions; face high levels of anxiety in social situations and have difficulties communicating and interacting with other people.
There are an estimated 30,000 or more autistic people in Wales, and although almost everyone has heard of autism, too few people understand what it's actually like to be autistic and how hard life can be if autistic people don't have the right support. Although diagnosis can be life-changing, helping explain who you are, thousands of children and adults in Wales are waiting many months or even years for assessment. A recent study found that only 28 per cent of autistic pupils in Wales felt their teachers understood autism, and new Office for National Statistics data suggests that just 29 per cent of autistic people are in any form of work.Without support, many autistic people develop mental health problems, sometimes to the point of crisis. This is why World Autism Acceptance Week is so important. Diolch.

Hefin David AC: Can I just take the opportunity to congratulate Mark Isherwood on that, because it's an issue very close to my heart?
The week before last marked British Science Week 2022, which is a 10-day celebration of STEM, science, technology, engineering and maths, which took place between 11 and 20 March. And this year's theme was 'smashing stereotypes', by celebrating the diverse people and careers of people in STEM careers in Wales. The STEM sectors are much more diverse than you'd think and than the stereotype suggests. There are people studying and working in labs, at colleges, universities, and in work, who've come from many different backgrounds and have taken lots of different routes into their career.
Colegau Cymru has highlighted the case to me of Chloe Thomas, who is one example of a learner who has benefited from this investment in STEM. She was successful in securing an apprenticeship with Transport for Wales, and attended Coleg y Cymoedd in Ystrad Mynach, which is in my constituency. And she said the college, quote, provided her with a positive hands-on learning environment with modern workshops and laboratories. So, significant. And she's now got that permanent position with TfW as a fleet support engineer, having been the first female apprentice to work in its Canton depot.
One thing I'd say, as we consider—and I know the Minister for Economy is considering—degree apprenticeships, we haven't quite got the balance right in gender terms with degree apprenticeships. So, there's a further opportunity at that level to succeed with degree-level apprenticeships in the way that stereotypes have been smashed at a further education level.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Buffy Williams MS: Today I'll be speaking about the Rhian Griffiths Forget Me Not fund, which is a tribute fund in loving memory of Rhian Griffiths, who sadly passed away at the age of 25 in June 2012 from cervical cancer. Rhian was a much-loved daughter and sister, who was committed to her work as a nursery teacher. Throughout her time receiving treatment at Velindre, she was a very well-thought-of patient at the hospital. Despite everything Rhian went through, she demonstrated a strength of character and positivity that touched everyone who met her, and asked her parents, Wayne and Jane, to carry on her work fundraising for Velindre.
The family, through the Rhian Griffiths Forget Me Not Fund, are honouring her wishes and commemorating her life by continuing with fund-raising efforts for Velindre. The fund currently stands at just under £700,000, with Rhian's father, Wayne, engaging with schools, colleges, Women's Institutes, care homes, pubs and clubs, local businesses—you name it—to get the message out there. The hope is that research will find a way to cure cancer so that no-one will have to go through what Rhian did, and no family will have to witness their loved one suffering, and that, in the meantime, Velindre will continue to develop their support for patients and their families, providing a centre of true world-class standard in the treatment of all types of cancer care. I'd just like to say thank you to Wayne for coming down to the Senedd steps today, and to the Members who met with Wayne to learn more about the Rhian Griffiths Forget Me Not Fund. Thank you.

Thank you, everyone.

Motion to Elect Members to a Committee

The next item is a motion to elect Members to a committee, and I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion. Darren Millar.

Motion NNDM7978 Elin Jones
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects:
1. Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru) as a member of the Standards of Conduct Committee in place of Heledd Fychan (Plaid Cymru);
2. Natasha Asghar (Welsh Conservatives) as a member of the Standards of Conduct Committee in place of Andrew R.T. Davies (Welsh Conservatives), and
3. Sam Rowlands (Welsh Conservatives) in place of Natasha Asghar (Welsh Conservatives) as alternate member of the Standards of Conduct Committee.

Motion moved.

Darren Millar AC: I move.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

5. Debate on the Equality and Social Justice Committee Report: 'Minding the future: The childcare barrier facing working parents'

The next item is a debate on the Equality and Social Justice Committee report, 'Minding the future: The childcare barrier facing working parents'. And I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion, Jenny Rathbone.

Motion NDM7970 Jenny Rathbone
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the Equality and Social Justice Committee report ‘Minding the future: The childcare barrier facing working parents’, laid on 28 January 2022.

Motion moved.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Diolch. Access to good, affordable childcare is key to happier, healthier lives and a stronger, fairer, more productive economy. The lack of affordable childcare is one of the main drivers of the gender pay gap that is persistently seen. As we saw during the pandemic, it was assumed that women would pick up the pieces when schools closed, and that is exactly what happened. We know that women were left juggling their role as teacher as well as cook, bottle washers, and trying to hold down a paid job. Our report points to a range of actions that can be taken to improve awareness of the support that is available to parents, strengthen the workforce and learn from the best practice of other nations. I want to thank stakeholders who contributed to this work, both from within Wales and internationally, including the parents and front-line childcare workers, some of whom I believe are in the gallery this afternoon. I also want to thank the excellent research and clerking staff who supported our inquiry.
It is noteable that significant numbers of families do not know what they are entitled to. And when you look at the latest Coram Family and Childcare annual survey of all British authorities, you can hardly be surprised, because less than half our local authorities have enough childcare for even the free early education entitlements that children should be getting. So, it's not surprising that local authorities are not bending over backwards to tell people about provision that doesn't actually exist. The Bevan Foundation reported that even awareness of the 10 hours of universal provision for three- and four-year-olds is low. And our focus group participants expressed varying degrees of awareness about the scope and eligibility criteria of both Flying Start and the childcare offer. It's quite a confusing picture, therefore.
We're pleased that the Government has accepted in principle our recommendation for how we can rectify this situation. We suggested that this could include writing to new parents, or promoting the support that's available when registering the birth. The Minister has put a lot of emphasis on the information that's available from each local authority's family information service, and we look forward to the refresh of the online 'Choosing Childcare' booklet that you've commissioned, which is due out later this year. But we do know that online information isn't sufficient to reach all families about their child's entitlement. And the family information service itself is excellent in that it provides information about stay and play provision, which is just as important in the very early days of parenthood, but it really doesn't flash up in golden lights exactly what is available as a child's entitlement.

Jenny Rathbone AC: It's very good to know that Flying Start teams are required to have other strategies for engaging with families and are expected to outline these as part of their annual plans, and I think that's a very important thing. But, unfortunately, you also say in your response that Flying Start itself is going to be using more social media platforms to communicate key messages to Flying Start families, and that's fine for some, but I fear that it won't reach the most disadvantaged.
Turning to the Welsh Government's childcare offer, originally it was focused only on families where both parents—or, in a single-parent household, that parent—are working over 16 hours a week. So, we very much welcome the extension to parents who are in education, training or on the edge of work, and particularly your acceptance of our recommendation that children's rights impact assessments and equality impact assessments need to be carried out and that they will be published at least a month before any changes in the provision are going to be going live.
I hope that that will assist all public authorities to address how, for example, people who are working atypical hours, such as shift workers, are going to be able to benefit from the childcare offer, because this largely low-paid section of the workforce have largely been excluded from benefitting from the childcare offer as the market has yet to provide for this level of complexity. You've put the onus on local authorities to address this as part of their childcare sufficiency assessments, and I've no doubt the committee will look with great interest at the detail of those in due course to see whether they really address that particular concern.
During our inquiry, we heard from experts in Scotland and Sweden, and it's really important that we all learn from the best as a way of driving up the quality of our provision and our standards across the sector, so that it is not just a programme for getting more parents back into work more quickly, but a crucial vehicle for narrowing the attainment gap.
The Welsh Government, and the Deputy Minister in particular, hugely value the learning through play curriculum for early years and key stage 1, but I feel that nowhere are the pedagogical skills more important than in the very early years. This is the most difficult group of children to teach, and therefore we need the very best teachers in this field. So, we're very pleased that the Government has accepted our recommendation about the crucial role that community-focused schools can play, improving the consistency and quality of the provision across the childcare sector.
It is terribly confusing for the child who at the moment has to be carted between up to three separate locations to cover the hours that their parent works, and parents themselves who took part in our consultations expressed confusion about the difference between early education and childcare. It seems to me that community-focused schools can really make a difference in ensuring that the whole community of offer is all good.
And I think there's quite a lot of cultural change that needs to go on as a result of this, because the National Association of Head Teachers tweeted that childcare should be kept out of schools in response to our report, which was a truly astonishing disregard for the role that quality, comprehensive childcare plays in narrowing the gap in attainment caused by poverty. They cannot be surprised that children turn up in school aged three with only three or four words if they don't pay attention to what childcare they're getting before they start mainstream school.
This is definitely not about schools taking over the valued role played by the private and the community nurseries, but I would be grateful if the Deputy Minister in her response could clarify how we are going to raise the capacity and capability of the whole of the childcare sector, which is largely dominated by these private and voluntary organisations, and that's particularly important when it comes to additional learning needs.
We had a really harrowing piece of evidence from somebody whose autistic child was simply not able to get any support at all during the time of lockdown because the key workers were told that the provision needed to close, and it seems to me that that sort of person, that sort of family needs, above all, to have been given much greater consideration. So, I think that it would be really helpful to hear a little bit more about how we're going to do that, because for a family with a disabled child, they don't want to be carting their child across some distance in order to be able to get the level of provision that child requires. We need that child to be able to get the same provision as the other children who they're playing with in daily life and not have to go somewhere special. They need to be integrated from the start.
I'd be grateful if you could tell us what progress has been made in taking forward the joint working by Estyn and Care Inspectorate Wales on the childcare provision and whether there's a greater role for Estyn in really ensuring that all childcare provision has the support of suitably qualified people in designing the curriculum, particularly for children with additional needs.
And lastly, I just want to say that we need a childcare sector that reflects the population. So, there's a great deal more work to do to ensure that people from different communities are encouraged to take up this important job in childcare, and the way in which we reward our workforce and show that we value this important work is something that we really all need to address, because, as one of our contributors said,
'We're on zero hour contracts and we're minding the future.'
So, pay and professionalisation of the sector are key to the child-focused and family-focused society we all seek.

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you to the Equality and Social Justice Committee for bringing forward today's report. You may be a little surprised to see me speaking on this item today, but I must say, I had the pleasure of attending two of the committee's meetings on behalf of my good friend and colleague over recent months, and I enjoyed the committee's work, carried out regarding parental employment and childcare—this specific issue. I'm sure the committee enjoyed my attendance there as well, at times. [Laughter.]
But, as we know, childcare and parental employment has been an issue for a number of years and been brought to light, certainly, through the COVID-19 pandemic. As access to affordable and flexible childcare is often cited, as shared already through the report, by many parents as one of the main barriers preventing them from working or progressing further in their careers—and my wife and I certainly have experienced this with our three children, who are under the age of 10—there's the challenge that can take place for working parents.
Before I jump into some of the points that jumped out to me in the report and the committee's work on this, just a thought going through my mind while the report was being presented is I do wonder, sometimes, whether we're missing a trick with multigenerational care. I always remember the story, in my former life, my former job, I had a new boss who came over on secondment from Hyderabad in India, and he couldn't get over the way that we deal with care, childcare, caring for our elderly, compared to some of the cultural ways that his tradition would use. I do wonder sometimes whether we're missing a trick with the grandparent-grandchild relationship that can take place and the support that we provide there across multiple generations. That's an aside, I suppose.
But in terms of the report and the points that jumped out to me, as cited, during the committee's evidence, many parents simply aren't aware of what childcare support is actually available to them, particularly available to new parents, and I experienced this around nine years ago. It's really important, in my view, that Welsh Government do work more closely with local authorities, in particular, and health boards and relevant organisations to improve this awareness and provide further information to parents, so they can use a number of the fantastic options that are out there, and it's crucial that childcare and support are targeted, certainly, at families that need it, and we try and avoid this postcode lottery that can happen from time to time.
Secondly, in terms of the co-operation agreement of the Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru, there's clearly some provision in there to improve and expand the free childcare to two-year-olds, particularly focused on providing strengthened Welsh-medium childcare, and I'd certainly welcome that from this side of the benches. These are items we've been calling for for a long time as well and it's good to see progress in that area.
Finally, I think it's clear from the committee's engagement that all efforts need to be made to encourage people from all backgrounds, as just highlighted by the Chair there, to consider a career in childcare. I know, for example, my wife worked in this area for a short time and it would be good to see a broader mix of people involved in that professional childcare and children being able to see different types of people looking after them over the series of their life, I suppose.
So, to conclude, I'd like to put on record my thanks to the whole of the committee for producing this really important piece of work on childcare and the positive outcomes that it will have. I also thank the organisations and public bodies and all sorts of bodies that provided evidence to help the committee with their recommendations. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Sioned Williams MS: I'm pleased to contribute to this debate as Plaid Cymru's spokesperson on equality and social justice and also as a committee member. A few weeks ago, we marked International Women's Day and discussed here in the Chamber the annual Chwarae Teg 'State of the Nation' report. That report revealed that we have a long way to go in terms of gender equality.
When the committee asked our witnesses what would make the most difference in terms of closing the gender pay gap and the inequalities that disproportionately affect women, families and children, while improving opportunities for women in the workplace and in society more generally, the answer was universal free childcare, and that should be available from one year old, if not younger. That would not only tackle gender inequality, but it would also deal with tackling poverty and disadvantage; good for mothers and parents, but most importantly, perhaps, good for children too. That's the ideal, the gold standard.
One research paper after another has pointed to that as something that we should aspire to, and that was confirmed, I think, by the evidence that is reflected in the committee's report. It's encouraging, therefore, that since we as a committee decided on the topic of our inquiry that the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru has ensured some progress towards that aim of expanding childcare to all two-year-olds as a first step.
One of the main messages of the report, which I hope will influence this important work, was, as we've heard, the lack of awareness, the difficulty in trying to find out what kind of care was available where, for what age group, for how many hours. In their evidence, the Women's Equality Network Wales shared with us that 67 per cent of the respondents to their survey had said that they needed more accessible and transparent information on the childcare provisions available. This was echoed by our focus groups in terms of their awareness of the childcare offer and Flying Start.
The picture painted was of patchy and inconsistent provision. A postcode lottery was described, where provision is not equal for all families and doesn't meet the needs of all children in all parts of Wales, and the inadequacies in terms of Welsh-medium provision and for children with additional learning needs clearly emerged as problems.
As they have accepted many of the committee's recommendations, and following the statement made last week, jointly with the Plaid Cymru designated Member, Siân Gwenllian, on the expansion of Flying Start, I would like to understand from the Deputy Minister what her vision is in terms of how we can deliver this aim of expanding childcare, bearing in mind what the report tells us of the challenges that need to be addressed in ensuring that. What part does the expansion of Flying Start play in the broader plans to enhance free childcare to all children of two years old? What's the plan in terms of expanding and developing the workforce and the provision that we need? And how will the Government secure improved access to clear and more accessible information for parents and a more streamlined childcare pathway for all, in all parts of Wales?

Sioned Williams MS: Differences in access, availability and quality of childcare for different social groups reinforces inequality and outcomes between these groups, which is why universal, high-quality childcare access is so important when trying to create a prosperous Wales, without child poverty, where children of all backgrounds get the best start in life.
It is thought that children from the poorest families are already 10 months behind those from better off backgrounds in terms of development by the time they turn three. Not only does increasing the provision of childcare improve outcomes for the most vulnerable children in our society, but also it reduces in-work and more general poverty rates across Wales.
The need for improved childcare provision has been highlighted by the current cost-of-living crisis, and only exacerbated by stagnating wages in Wales. As we've highlighted many times in this place, the energy prices, the fuel prices, the food prices, the tax hikes, the inflation and the despicable decision by the UK Government to cut the uplift in universal credit and not to increase benefits in line with inflation will mean that the economic storm hitting our nation will hit the poorest in our society the hardest, and families with children, especially, having to choose between heating their homes or having a decent meal. Three in 10 households with an income less than £40,000 a year have seen their income drop since May 2021. Implementing the recommendations of this report quickly, efficiently and wholeheartedly will help slow the impact of this crisis while safeguarding future generations.
I am pleased that the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru begins to tackle some of the issues raised in the committee's report. However, this should inspire progress and not be seen as the end to the problem, as we push for universal childcare for all, to improve outcomes for children, create opportunities for parents, especially women, to access or return to work and education. Diolch.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I'm very pleased to rise and speak briefly in this debate, and also to thank the committee for their work and for continuing their attention on this really critical area of social policy, because it's undoubtedly the case—it almost goes without saying, but I'm darn well going to say it—if we get the investment right in the early years provision, in a coherent, unified system of early years provision, then we will transform life opportunities and we do have to build on what we've got there.
I want to start by looking at that and touching on this issue of how we will get to the place we want to be, with a proper unified, coherent early childhood education and care system that goes from the very early years all the way through, with this continuum. And, in fact, that is what was spelt out a couple of years ago when Welsh Government launched its ambition. I note in the letter at that point to Lynne Neagle, who now is a Minister, but was then chairing the same committee, that Julie Morgan wrote to Lynne, saying our ECEC aim is to create a single, high-quality, child-centred approach to early childhood education and care across Wales, one which recognises the value of both early education and childcare, drawing the best of both together in one single experience, with parents able to access services in Welsh, English or bilingually. Now, that's absolutely the ambition and it set a 10-year pathway to do it. Well, we're three and a half years now on from that moment, with that letter.
I do pay, genuinely, a compliment to Welsh Government for trying to build on the framework we have, but we were talking about this three, four, five years ago and more. We do have Flying Start in Wales, and it does a tremendous job, but it doesn't reach every child that Flying Start needs to get to. We do have a very good working-parent focus, although now extended to parents also seeking skills and training or higher education, which extends the childcare offer for three and four-year-olds, but it doesn't go to everybody, so it doesn't deal with that universality.
And, as has rightly being remarked on this, the problem that we have is, when you have something that is this complex mix of supply-and-demand-side approaches from UK and Welsh Government, the ones that tend to lose out are those who find it too complex to navigate, those from disadvantaged areas. And we can absolutely see the graphs that go back years that show in places like Merthyr and Blaenau Gwent and Ogmore, in contrast to Bridgend, for example—north to south of the motorway—the difference in childcare provision, where there's no advantage to childcare and early years providers to open up in areas where there is economic disadvantage. So, we really need to pull some of these together.
So, I'm asking the Minister today to give us an idea how far we've progressed on the development of this single, unified, coherent, ECEC structure. We were never going to do it overnight, but this report, once again, has fleshed out how much further we've got to go. We are building on a sector that is diverse and complex in its provision. We still have a situation where, for three and four-year-olds, it goes from areas and local authorities where there are wholly maintained sectors, like Neath Port Talbot, to other areas, like Monmouth, where non-maintained diverse independent providers dominate this scenario. How do you develop a unified, single, coherent ECEC structure when you have that sort of provision? The lack of incentive to invest in disadvantaged areas means that places like Merthyr are still losing out significantly, and anywhere, if you like, north of the snow line.
Flying Start isn't everywhere. The means-tested, supply-side approach in Wales, contrasting with the market-driven demand side in England, is really a complex framework. Anybody would have difficulty in navigating this, even with the local authorities providing advice. You've got to have the confidence to go there and then work out what's best for you. Then we have multiple aims in Government. Is this to do with the child's rights-based approach, a child-focused, child-centred approach, or is it to do with tackling disadvantage, or many, many other things, or providing economic opportunities? Actually, it's all of these, but, first and foremost, let's get the narrative clear, let's get the coherent picture, which needs to focus on—. All of the countries that have done this have done it best with a unified vision, one that clearly says, 'The child is at the centre of it, but we're also going to do x, y and z.' That's where we need to be. So, let me just sum up with some questions for the Minister—. And we've got the issue of costs as well. We are probably double or more, throughout the UK, the costs that people should be paying for it.
So, Minister, how close are we to getting to those unified principles for a unified ECEC approach, with children's rights at the top? Can we end the distinction between education and care? Even with these diverse providers, can we end that distinction? Because there's still too much of it out there. Can we establish a clear curriculum, which is also age appropriate and also has play right at its centre, in an age-appropriate way, but a clear curriculum so that there's consistency amongst all providers? Can we put that unified approach on ECEC under a unified—I just ask the question—department, a unified Minister, not split across Government departments? And can we end the ECEC gaps in provision? We're not going to do it all overnight. We're only a third of the way in, which means we've got two thirds of the way to go of this decade to actually change it. And I say this as a former Minister who had the privilege of covering this for the very short period I was Minister. I had some great officials who were putting work into this. It's starting to happen, let's go the whole hog.

Laura Anne Jones AC: As a non-committee member, I just want to make a short contribution. I am a single working mother of two boys, and so I wanted to just say how much I welcome the fact that you are looking into this. I want to thank Jenny and the committee for making this a priority, because it is something that affected not only me, but it affects many, many of us throughout Wales. I have first-hand experience and know what the challenges are that working parents face day in, day out.
I chose to take a few years out of work with my first child as a single mother, which was my choice. But, I did find it really difficult to get back into work—although it wasn't through a lack of trying or wanting to—in terms of the career support that was available and obviously the childcare support, with not very much money at all at the time. So, I very much welcome you looking into these sorts of barriers and everything that you've concluded, actually, in this. I want to also welcome, alongside my colleague Sam Rowlands, the free childcare for two-year-olds. It is so important that we have childcare that is affordable, flexible and accessible for all. As has already been said, in those early years, support is absolutely vital.
As well as rightly looking into the childcare settings themselves, the pandemic obviously has shown that virtual working is such a useful tool for people with children but also those wanting to get back into work after having children. I should declare an interest as a Monmouthshire county councillor. As a former councillor, I wanted to, at the time, as did a councillor just before me, having just had a child—. We asked if we could go virtual in the chamber, and we were told it was too difficult at the time. And yet months later, the pandemic hit and then we were all virtual within seconds, it seemed like. So, were my problems, our problems or our barriers, not important enough? That's the impression that I got. That's the sort of attitude that we're facing, and that's what we need to overcome. I think we need to learn from the pandemic and realise that, in extenuating circumstances, carers with children or elderly relatives should be able to and should have the right to use virtual where needed now, particularly as support for getting back into work after having a child. As it happens, I was in the Chamber two weeks after anyway, but I had really supportive parents. I don't know how people cope that don't have those supportive parents living nearby, and that support network, particularly if you haven't got much money to afford, like around me in Monmouthshire, as was pointed out just now, the largely very expensive private childcare settings.
So, those are just a few things that I wanted to highlight, but I do think that we could set an example and a tone within this Senedd itself. I think in 2003 when I was first an Assembly Member, it was promised that we would have a crèche in the National Assembly for Wales, as the Minister next to you, Jane Hutt, will know. It was 50:50 women and men in this Chamber, and it was recognised that we needed to support our parents and carers with young people coming into politics. It was seen as one of the barriers for many people coming into politics that they couldn't do it with small children, and it's something that we need to overcome. I think it's abhorrent that when I came back in July 2020 expecting to see a crèche here, there wasn't one. I do think that's a shortfall, and we need to set an example and look to establishing a crèche here very soon. It's 20 years on from when it was first promised by this Labour Government, and it's disappointing that it hasn't been done. So, I'd also like your opinions on that please, Minister. Thank you.

Jane Dodds AS: May I thank fellow committee members for their work,and all of those organisations who gave evidence to us as part of our work?

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you also to Sam Rowlands for joining us. Childcare is the most frequently cited barrier for women in work. It is a huge cost for working families, and it's a barrier for parents looking to re-enter the workforce, as we've heard from Laura Anne. That's before you consider the complexity of the arrangements and eligibility criteria that parents and carers need to navigate, as Jenny Rathbone, our Chair, has already highlighted.
It's really great to hear such a wide range of contributions from the Siambr, but there's one recommendation that I just wanted to focus on, and that's recommendation 2, which is addressing the gap in childcare between the end of maternity leave and eligibility for the childcare offer. That period between maternity and the age of three is crucial for children. Access to good-quality childcare for all children, regardless of their background, is essential if we are to create a brighter future for every child in Wales.
Currently, the costs and complexity of the arrangements between nine months and school age are disadvantaging many families. In order to currently qualify for the childcare offer, each parent in the household must be working and earning below £100,000 a year. So, a child whose parents have a combined annual income of £99,000 could qualify, but a child from a non-working lone parent family, or a two-parent family where one or both parents do not work, isn't eligible. This cannot be right. A quick search of day nursery places right now across my region shows that the prices are around £800 to £1,000 a month. Evidence from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development shows that increased provision of early years learning and childcare improves a child's attainment in later years, with sustained improvement in lifelong outcomes in health, employment and education.
I want to reiterate the calls that my party has made in the election, and those also made by Chwarae Teg, for universal free childcare for all children from birth to age four, regardless of the employment status of their parents. I believe that this would transform the lives of parents and carers and our economy, and should be an aspiration that this Government holds for every child in Wales. The sooner we recognise childcare, paid parental and carer leave and investment in families as an investment in our economy and our future, the better off we will be. As we have heard, it's important also that children with additional learning needs should have their access to childcare enhanced. Finally, I really welcome this report, and I'm grateful for the work that we were all able to do. I hope we can keep the aspiration for every child and family to have free, good-quality childcare to bring about a more equal, more educated, healthier, more interested and interesting and more economically active Wales. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Sarah Murphy AS: Let me start by thanking my colleagues and the clerks of the Equality and Social Justice Committee, as well as all of those who the committee consulted to be able to produce this report. As a member of the committee, I wanted to state how crucial it is that, as a society, we prioritise childcare and ensure that nobody's faced with making financial or employment decisions based on the implications of an unequal childcare system.
I must state as well that I welcome the latest news from the Welsh Government on the extension to access to childcare for three and four-year-olds for parents in education and training, as well as those taking adoption leave, and I look forward to progress on the co-operation agreement, which is set to deliver childcare for two-year-olds. But we cannot escape the fact that this news is long overdue. For many parents, often mothers, students, those on low income, those in insecure jobs, childcare is often the single biggest issue that shapes their decisions on how to move forward with their employment, and just for the life choices that they make. I am pleased that the report acknowledges just this. I am often contacted by constituents in Bridgend with stories from parents who just don't know what support is out there, who have felt stuck with the options that are currently available. That is why, as recommended in the report, and highlighted by my colleagues, we must do more to ensure that childcare provision is communicated to parents in the same way that other services are.
This leads me to another recommendation, on filling the gap between the end of maternity leave and the current childcare offer. Chwarae Teg, Arad Research and the Women's Equality Network have brought these experiences to the heart of our report, as well as having engaged directly with childcare providers. The financial reality for many parents is that they are having to cut back on work as they cannot afford childcare, or simply work to fund their child's placement at nursery. We have been talking about childcare provision in Wales, the UK and the western world for over 50 years. Oftentimes, it's talked about as if universal childcare is a sort of utopia, something that can never be achieved, but this is simply not the case. Wales must move to make childcare a service that has equal access for all. The Swedish Gender Equality Agency shows that if we genuinely want gender equality, we must push forward with establishing the pillars of that system. I'd particularly welcome any insight from the Minister about their views on what our ultimate goal is, and how we're going to get there, and their views on the universal free childcare as highlighted by Sioned Williams and the unified approach as raised by Huw Irranca-Davies.
I'm going to end my contribution by highlighting one last recommendation stated within the report, and that is for those working in the childcare sector. Our childcare workers and professionals were on the front line during the pandemic, and are having to face insecure and low-paid work. At the moment we know that there's an increase in COVID in our communities; it's the nurseries that are really being hit by this, with so many children off. I went to visit Cornelly children's centre in my constituency of Bridgend last week, and 10 children weren't in attendance because of COVID. I just wanted to say as well the quality of the care that they give, and the work they put into the development and happiness of our future generations, is outstanding. So, we really do owe it to them to ensure that they're given the recognition they deserve with secure work, career recognition and fair pay. Thank you.

Carolyn Thomas AS: I'd like to share some of my own experiences as a mum of three who had voluntary roles within the sector as a playgroup committee secretary and fundraiser to highlight why access to childcare is so important for working parents.
After my first child was born—and this goes back a few years, when times were easier—I went back to my office job, but most of my wages went on nursery fees. When I had two children following maternity leave, I had to give up my office job as childcare was too expensive, and went to work in a shop in the evening when my husband came home from work. I also then worked in a pub and did an Avon round for a number of years. When I had my third child, I was fortunate that it was the pre-universal credit era, pre cuts to social security, and we still had child and working tax credit, which meant that, with the top-ups of £80 extra per week to my husband's wages, I could afford to have some time at home with my young children for a short while, until I started to go back into part time and then full-time work, sometimes, though, having to take my youngest child with me.
Times were tough then, but I was fortunate, because under universal credit, cuts to social security benefits and the rising cost of living, that option is no longer there for so many families. For most people, having children and balancing income is a juggle and a struggle, as most families rely on two wages. Childcare is too expensive, and grandparents, who may have helped at one time, may be working themselves, as my mum was, or live too far away. Once the children reached three and a half and four years of age and had free paid-for childcare at playgroup or school nursery, it was such a relief—a milestone for me to go back to work.
Some might say we shouldn't have children if we can't afford them, but I don't think I've ever been able to afford my children and I am proud of each one of them and what they have achieved, giving back to society. And it's no wonder that now there is a concerning fall in birth rates, which, if we don't resolve, will cause issues in years to come, with an ageing population and nobody to pay taxes or care for them. It's down to financial hardship, insecurity and general anxiety about the future. The birth rate rose during the last UK Labour Government, thanks to free nursery education, childcare, tax credits, and 3,500 Sure Start children's centres. The birth rate began to plunge again in 2012, which was when draconian austerity cuts kicked in, targeted at children. The number of babies born in 2019 was down a startling 12.2 per cent on 2012, with a further 4 per cent reduction over the last two years. Without a secure home and certainty of food on the table, people dare not have babies.
When I was on the playgroup committee, we had to fundraise, as the amount parents paid and funding from Government for free childcare wasn't enough to cover the wages, the hire of the facilities, the insurance, the materials. And just like primary schools, they also have to adhere to the foundation phase curriculum and inspections. Special learning materials and toys have to bought, varied healthy snacks have to be provided—all at an added cost.
Like schools, playgroups are also inspected by Estyn. Playgroup supervisors are often paid minimum wage for a service that now, due to curriculums and inspections, requires special skills and training. I remember sometimes the playgroup supervisors would go without being paid for a little while until the money kicked in, and I remember sometimes we used to just try and cover their wages as well, ourselves personally. Their role now must involve planning, observation and assessments, and they must adhere to a child's individual needs to make sure they reach their full potential, which is right, but they should be paid for it. All this must be down on paper for inspection and reports have to be written.
With schools now required by law to recruit staff to adhere to the 1:8 ratio, many qualified supervisors are leaving playgroups to move into schools where the pay and working conditions are so much better. The retention of suitably qualified staff is therefore now becoming a big problem, simply down to the fact that playgroups cannot afford to give their staff the remuneration they deserve. Playgroups are collapsing because staff can no longer afford to work for such low wages for the responsibility they have. We need to be better at recognising the important work these staff members do.
I have seen documents and strategies stating that young children are starting school nursery with poor communication skills, and how important it is for them to attend playgroups, and also how important it is for education through the foundation phase to start as early as possible at even two and a half years of age, but there is no finance to support it.
Comments are made by schools about how much easier it is for post-playgroup children and teachers as they have already been taught to put away, self-select, and shown how to do all these things. They are so much more prepared for school, which in turn assists teachers in progressing with the foundation phase.

You need to conclude now.

Carolyn Thomas AS: I will, thank you. It's brilliant that Welsh Government want to fund two-year-olds to attend higher quality childcare settings, but I agree with the report findings that it will only be effective if the settings can stay open and that the funding is adequate to pay staff a real living wage. Thank you.

I call on the Deputy Minister for Social Services, Julie Morgan.

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you, and I would like to start by thanking the committee and my colleagues for participating in this important debate.

Julie Morgan AC: I think this has been an absolutely great debate, and it's been so good to hear from everybody and people's personal experiences and the great commitment that has been shown in this Chamber and by the committee to expanding childcare andrecognising its importance, because I think wherever you live or the circumstances you're born into should not determine your future. We need to have high aspirations for all children and families in Wales, and we know that access to high-quality early education and care is invaluable for children, and particularly for those from more disadvantaged communities. And ensuring that every child has access to high-quality support and the early education and childcare they receive is the key to addressing inequality, as Jenny Rathbone said in her introduction to the debate.

Julie Morgan AC: The Welsh Government has always had a strong focus on children. Successive Governments have placed the rights and needs of children high on the agenda, from the appointment of the first Children's Commissioner for Wales in the UK to leading on the promotion of children's play and the introduction of a child-centred curriculum. The Welsh Government values Wales's children and young people and is committed to making Wales a wonderful place in which to grow up. And in Wales we have excellent childcare provision across the early years and a long-established and well-regarded early education offer for three and four-year-olds. And our approach to early childhood education and care is building on these foundations, and at its core is the aim that all children will have a high-quality, stimulating learning and care experience in any education and care setting they attend, in Welsh, English or bilingually. The type of setting they attend is irrelevant if they are being supported and nurtured as they need. And in response to Huw Irranca-Davies's contribution, I am confident that we are moving towards a future where all children right across Wales will be able to attend stimulating, exciting and beneficial childcare and play experiences, and this will enable their families to make the most of the opportunities afforded to them. So, we are on that journey to ECEC that I know as Minister he was very supportive when he was in this role, and later in the summer, we will be publishing a more detailed description of how we're going to reach there. But I want to reassure the Chamber that we are on this journey and that we think it is one of the most important things that we need to do.
Supporting families with childcare costs is one of our main priorities, and I'm very pleased that our co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru supports us in this ambition, because access to affordable and flexible childcare is an important part of supporting parents, and as we've heard today, particularly mothers—I was very pleased to hear from Sam as well—to overcome one of the main barriers that prevent them from working or from progressing further in their careers, and that has been illustrated in this debate. Because childcare in all its forms does just that: it gives parents choices, choices about whether, for example, they can go for a promotion, make a career change, work longer hours to bring in more income in these increasingly challenging financial times, because childcare is an enabler, helping increase economic growth, tackle poverty and reduce inequalities. And at this particularly awful time, when so many families are struggling, funded childcare is a crucial element in the fight against poverty, and I think Sioned talked about the really difficult circumstances that so many people are in here in Wales today, and I see childcare as a crucial way of tackling those huge difficulties that people are experiencing.
Delivering a mixed model of provision to suit the needs of different families is challenging, and I'm pleased that we've got a broad spectrum of services in Wales to support those different needs and provisions through the mediums of English and Welsh. But I'm also conscious that the options available to families can be influenced by a huge range of factors. For example, in rural and in less affluent areas, we see that there's definitely less choice for parents and there's more we need to do in terms of Welsh-medium provision right across Wales. Jenny raised in her contribution at the beginning about the issue of children, disabled children, perhaps being moved around between different types of provision, which is obviously what we would want to avoid, and we are encouraging childcare provision on school sites, and I hope we have the support of some headteachers to continue to do that, and also our capital grants, our capital childcare grants, have enabled further provision of childcare on sites.
Just to say at this point, several Members have made a point that lots of people don't know what childcare is available, and I think that this is a very important point that the committee has raised. We do depend a lot on the family information service, because we think it is good to have the information in one spot. And we're working hard with the family information service to ensure it is as wide as it can be. We're also working with Cwlwm to make sure that what's on the website is reaching as widely as it possibly can. So, I do think that's a very important point, that we must know what is available.
We have committed to fund childcare for more parents in education and training through our childcare offer for three to four-year-olds, and we are also, as has been mentioned lots of times here today, and very widely welcomed, expanding childcare to all two-year-olds in Wales, with a particular emphasis on strengthening Welsh-medium provision, and that's a commitment in the co-operation agreement between the Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru.
So, phase 1 of the expansion will include all four elements of Flying Start being offered to around 2,500 additional children. And the two-year-olds will receive the funded childcare. I think it's really important to note that the research that's been done on Flying Start has shown that it has narrowed the gap, that it has been really successful. And that's why we decided that we would expand the two-year-old provision through Flying Start, because the combination of the four elements of Flying Start has bridged that gap, and it's bridged it very successfully. So, I think that we've made the right decision that we're going through Flying Start to expand.
And in the summer, we'll come forward with our plans about how we will proceed with expanding Flying Start, because we do have the aim of having all two-year-olds having access to funded childcare in the three years of the co-operation agreement—by the end of the three years. And it is very ambitious—it is a very ambitious plan. I think I'll just say that we have to work, in ensuring that we fulfil this plan, in genuine partnership with the sector in order to achieve this. We absolutely have to talk to all the different organisations that are involved in the sector to bring this about successfully. And there are many interconnected cogs in this system, and we want to ensure that improvements made are the right ones for the children of Wales, and to offer services that are inclusive of all needs and experiences.
I thought it very important to make the point that, as a Government, we are committed to creating an anti-racist Wales. That is one of the areas that we want to look at in relation to the childcare sector. Because the race equality action plan will be published, I believe, and the Minister of Social Justice is here, by May 2022—

You need to bring your contribution to a conclusion now.

Julie Morgan AC: —and we'll continue to work in partnership to develop actions for the childcare and play sector, because I think this is an absolutely crucial sector.
So, in conclusion—I think there are lots of other points that I would like to cover, but in conclusion, the Government is absolutely committed to extending childcare. We believe that free childcare should be available to all those children who need it in Wales, and we are on a step on that journey. Diolch.

I call on Jenny Rathbone to reply to the debate.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you very much for everybody's contributions; it's been a really rich debate. Sam Rowlands, thank you for your participation in our inquiry. Certainly, there's an important role for grandparents. If they're too decrepit to get down on the floor, which is what you need in early years, then, of course, there's a very important role for them helping children read in school. But there really is a role for anybody who is child focused to get stuck in with the very early children.
Sioned emphasised the terrible impact of the gender pay gap, which is largely, as Chwarae Teg says, down to the lack of childcare. And obviously, you were arguing for the gold standard, that we should have childcare for every child from the age of one. And that, of course, is what we must aspire to, but it's taken Sweden since the 1970s to get where they are today and we can only move forward in bite-sized chunks, frankly.
Sioned, you also emphasised the importance of expanding Flying Start and asking about where it's going to be targeted. Is it, for example, going to be targeted at pockets of poverty not covered by Flying Start, which I know the Deputy Minister has always had a bit of a focus on?
It's very useful to hear from Huw Irranca-Davies, who previously had this role in Government. Of course, the very early years—. Children start learning from birth. You've only got to see the way the photographs capture it—these birth photos, with the child looking at the mother. That is communication and that is when it starts. So, I think a very important point made by Huw Irranca, which is that there's no financial advantage to opening up provision in areas of disadvantage, and that is where the state has to intervene, if the market is not working. Clearly, we need to ensure that those who are doing a really valuable role in the private and community sectors are able to do it.
Laura Anne Jones—absolutely no apologies for contributing to this. We're not talking to ourselves; we are talking to the whole Senedd. This is something we all need to pay attention to, because the Effective Provision of Pre-school Education evidence is absolutely clear, and that was published in 2004: preschool education really does make a difference in terms of disadvantage, and that is what we need to do. So, childcare for under-threes is absolutely essential.
Jane Dodds, you also went for gold in terms of wanting childcare from when maternity leave ends, but also pointing out that the current childcare offer excludes those who are not working or where you have a two-parent household where one is not working.
Sarah, you reflected the struggles of your constituents—the students, people on low pay—for whom childcare is the biggest hurdle, and people who work to fund their childcare. And then Carolyn Thomas—what a brilliant contribution—your lived experience of exactly that, having to just earn enough money to fund the childcare. That is the destiny of most people on below-average earnings. It is not possible, in general terms, to work unless you've got handy grandparents or other members of the family who are prepared to assist you. And I think you also reflected the struggle of the voluntary sector, of having to fundraise for the wages, for the costs, for the supplies. This is so important.
And then, Julie Morgan, thank you very much for welcoming our report. There's obviously a huge amount of unanswered questions that we'll need to come back to. For example, the childcare for two-year-olds—is this early education or is it childcare? Because that's absolutely crucial. For my own part, I think it should be early education, because that is what's going to benefit the child and, at the end of the day, there really are three things, I think, the three Cs—

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Could I make a short intervention?

Jenny Rathbone AC: Quickly.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: A very short intervention. It's simply to say that all the international experience shows that from age appropriate—. From a very young age, from that nine months and onwards, what you need is that unified approach that actually brings the early years education and childcare together. That includes play, but that unified approach is critical to success and outcomes.

Jenny Rathbone AC: We agree. We all know that learning through play is the very best thing to do and that is the best outcome for young children.
But I think the three challenges we all face—. One is cost, the other is the need to be child focused and the third is that consistency of curriculum across all settings, wherever the childcare is being delivered. Those are the three things we need to move forward on.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? I haven't heard an objection, therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Supporting pharmacists

The next item is the Welsh Conservatives debate on supporting pharmacists. I call on Russell George to move the motion.

Motion NDM7971 Darren Millar
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Recognises the vital work pharmacists have undertaken throughout the pandemic, as well as their crucial role in supporting primary and secondary care.
2. Welcomes the new National Clinical Community Pharmacy Service coming into force on 1 April 2022.
3. Is concerned by results from the Royal Pharmaceutical Society’s 2021 Workforce Wellbeing Survey, which shows that nine out of 10 respondents were at high risk of burnout and one in three had considered leaving the profession altogether.
4. Calls on the Welsh Government to:
a) urgently reduce bureaucracy by introducing e-prescriptions and providing access to medical records;
b) ensure dedicated protected learning time within working hours for wellbeing and study;
c) invest in the pharmacy workforce to train more pharmacy staff and upskill existing staff.

Motion moved.

Russell George AC: Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. I move the motion today, tabled in the name of my colleague Darren Millar.
Throughout the pandemic, we have rightly, of course, praised our key workers, haven't we, and our NHS staff for their response to COVID-19. But I don't feel that we have all championed the role of pharmacists enough, which is why I'm very proud today to lead this debate highlighting the important role that pharmacists have played throughout the pandemic and to ask the Welsh Government to go a little further in areas relating to pharmacy. Pharmacies deserve thanks for the crucial role that they have played, of course, during the pandemic, supporting primary and secondary care. They have supported the national roll-out, haven't they, of the COVID-19 vaccine, helping to get those jabs into the arms of people across Wales, so that we can get back to a degree of normality, following on from the pandemic.
And the role of pharmacists is not just, of course, limited to handing over prescriptions. We all know that, I think, hopefully, in this Chamber, but many will not realise that. Community Pharmacy Wales found that—this is quite an important stat here—if pharmacies had not been available, a staggering 53 per cent of patients reported that they would have visited their GP in the first instance, resulting in over 35,000 surgery consultations a week. Now, that's a pretty staggering stat, isn't it, really? So, to put that into some context, that's 86 appointments in each of the 410 GP practices across Wales per week. And a further 3 per cent would also have visited A&E or minor injuries units, resulting in an increase of 2,000 appointments per week. Now, unfortunately, pharmacists have been very much under pressure and huge stress, and I think it's not exaggerating to say very often at breaking point. So, I do think that they need more support, they need more investment, including a significantly increased number of training spots.
Now, I and Welsh Conservatives, we very much welcome the introduction of the national clinical community pharmacist service on 1 April, and I certainly feel that this is an innovative, wide-ranging agreement between the Welsh Government, the Welsh NHS and Community Pharmacy Wales, which will introduce a national clinical community pharmacy service. The four priority services include enabling all pharmacies to provide treatment for common and minor ailments; access to repeat prescriptions in an emergency; annual flu vaccinations; and forms of emergency and regular contraception. All fantastic steps, I think—a fantastic step forward to alleviating and helping to alleviate the pressure on GPs and NHS services. Also, I do feel as well that the public do need clear communication here—that's what we need—for the changes. And I think having that clear communication will enable communities, I think, to hit the ground running with this new system. So, I think we need to maximise public awareness. That, in turn, of course, itself will see big benefits very quickly in terms of alleviating the pressure on GP surgeries and health services. And a good example here, I think, in fairness to the Minister here, is the NHS 'Help us Help you' campaign. It's a very good example, I think, of this type of awareness campaign. So, I think this is what we need in this instance.
And as great as the new service will be, or could be, I think we still need to address the fact that pharmacy workforces are hugely under pressure. Wales-wide figures on pharmacy workforce gaps are not routinely published. However, prior to the pandemic Health Education and Improvement Wales found that the total community pharmacy vacancies reported for all job roles were 354 full-time equivalent staff, or 652 staff by head count, giving a mean vacancy rate of 7 per cent across full-time equivalent roles. So, it is disheartening, I think, isn't it, to hear that one in four respondents in community pharmacies stated that they were not offered rest breaks and over half of the respondents in hospital pharmacies stated that they were offered breaks but were frequently unable to take them. So, I and colleagues have to be very concerned about this, but what we're particularly saying is that this isn't always about pay, this is also about conditions for staff as well. And I think, in that regard, overstretched staff are then going to find themselves leaving the profession and going elsewhere. So, I think retention is obviously really important in this regard.
So, we've got to give staff in pharmacy as well, we've got to give them the time and space that they need to learn, of course, and develop. And we also need to support them via improved mental health services as well. They're under huge pressure, obviously under a significant amount of pressures during the extra burden caused by COVID-19, and therefore the extra mental health support to support the staff, I think, is also crucial as well.
So, pharmacies in Wales carry out an outstanding job in supporting the community, but they're often hampered by unnecessary bureaucracy, which is not reflected in other parts of the UK. I'm always conscious when people say, 'Reduce bureaucracy', but what does that mean? 'Give an example', I always say. So, here's my example: it is shocking that the sharing of medical records isn't routinely available in Wales. That would not only free up valuable time for pharmacists and GPs, but also provide beneficial tailored care to patients. So, I do very much of course welcome the fact that the Welsh Government is committed to rolling out e-prescribing—and the Minister is nodding; I was looking for a moment. So, I very much welcome that, but, of course, the fact that it might take three to five years, of course, is too slow. I think we need to be faster at that.
And, of course, other areas that we need to focus on as well are—. Well, if we have e-prescribing, that will reduce medication errors, of course—a huge issue as well—and reduce, then, impacts in terms of hospital admissions as well. So, pharmacies have supported the nation, supported us in Wales during the roll-out of COVID vaccines, they've helped us get those jabs into arms of people across Wales to get back to some degree of normal life. They've helped in reducing visits to GP surgeries at a time of intense pressure on them and the health service. So, I think it is time to make pharmacies a central pillar of healthcare.
No amendments have been tabled to our motion today, which I hope is an indication that the Government and all Members will be supporting our motion today. I think I saw the Minister nodding there as well. So, if that is the case, I'm very pleased with that, and may that approach long continue. So, I urge Members to support our sensible plan for the good of patients, pharmacists and for the NHS as a whole. Diolch yn fawr.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you for the opportunity to make a few comments in this debate, and no, we haven't put forward any amendments, because there is a set of principles here that I'm sure that we could all support. Pharmacy is at the heart of our health services. It has to be, but it hasn't always been the case. Too often, I think pharmacy, and community pharmacy in particular, have been seen as something on the margins. Important, of course, but there, perhaps, to support the main health services rather than being a core part of those services. And we're going through a process of demanding a culture change at present, I think, in terms of how people engage with their health services, and it's something that I genuinely believe passionately in. And we have to succeed to change this culture, all of us, individuals and society as a whole, if we want to create a health service that is sustainable for the future. And one of the changes is going through this switch from people feeling that they need to see a doctor. Many people do have to see a doctor, but from that mindset, rather, to, 'How can I get the most appropriate healthcare for me or my family?' And upgrading the role of the pharmacist, our pharmacies in our communities, and enabling people to turn to a pharmacist first of all with more and more ailments is a key part of that.
And the fact that we do have this national clinical community pharmacy service coming into force this week is something that I welcome very much. We have a framework that I hope is going to push this agenda forward, drive this change of culture, but there's a great deal more that we need to do, and one of the things that we do need to see happening now is even more education for people—us included—about how to change the way that we think about our health services. The Government has invested in the communication plans about the change coming into force this week, but I think that there is a great deal more that could be done too.
And we have to go through a number of steps as well, in order to align with the introduction of the changes this week and ensure that pharmacies genuinely are at the heart of every primary care cluster in Wales, ensuring that we now deliver the digital changes that pharmacy and primary care need. I chair the cross-party group on digital, and in our meeting at lunch time today, health and care were at the heart of what we discussed, and there is an appetite now to ensure that our services, including pharmacy, can use the latest technology. There is no sense in the twenty-first century, a quarter of the way into the twenty-first century, that so many pieces of paper prescriptions are still flying around the NHS in Wales. It is something that I'm ashamed about, I have to say, and I believe that the Minister is too.
And one of the other factors that we need to consider, and the motion today reflects that, is the investment that is needed in the workforce. The well-being survey that the motion refers to is very concerning with regard to the weaknesses within the workforce at the moment. We do have to invest in that workforce. As we are having a new medical school in Wales, we need a new school of pharmacy in Wales, to ensure that flow of people through the system that is going to be such a key part of pharmacy at the heart of primary care in Wales.

James Evans MS: Will you take on intervention?

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Of course.

James Evans MS: Do you agree with me, Rhun, that it's the job of the Welsh Government to make sure that we can actually invest in that workforce and get more people into becoming pharmacists by offering a degree apprenticeship into the pharmacy route, and that that's something that the Welsh Government should pursue with urgent pace?

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I would certainly agree with that as a suggestion. I would like to think of all our health and care workers as paid apprentices in some way, learning a trade that they will be able to use, whether that is as a doctor or a care worker or pharmacist within our health and care services in Wales. We have to be innovative in the way that we look at strengthening our workforce.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I can see that time is up. It's good to see agreement on this today, but it's one thing to have that agreement on a set of principles, it's another to see the Government delivering on those things that are genuinely going to make pharmacy stronger and more sustainable for the years to come.

Jack Sargeant AC: It may be a surprise to Members after yesterday, but I will be supporting this motion, I welcome this motion by the Welsh Conservatives today. But I must say to the Member who opened today's debate, he might be getting a little bit ahead of himself if he thinks there are going to be no amendments to future debates here. But, on cross-party support, I can see the Members for Preseli Pembrokeshire and South Wales West who have been into the Labour tie shop this afternoon, so, in the spirit of cross-party support, I certainly will be supporting today's debate. [Laughter.]
The Member who opened the debate, Russell George, did say some very good things in his opening remarks, particularly on communication. Communication is needed. We have seen examples of poor communication in the health service in recent times, and we need to make sure this is communicated better, that this new service is communicated to all residents across Wales. He also mentioned e-prescribing, as did Rhun ap Iorwerth, and I have to agree, three to five years is too slow. It is too slow, and we must do more to tackle that.
It's always a great pleasure of mine to visit and meet pharmacists across Alyn and Deeside, and I've made many visits during my time as a Member of the Senedd, and I look forward to many more of them, because we owe a great debt of gratitude to pharmacists and staff in pharmacies across Wales for the work they did throughout the pandemic, but also the work they continue to do as well.
The motion quite clearly states the worrying and shocking statistics from the survey that was carried out with regard to well-being. I just want to read out two of the stats in there—one is in the motion—that nine out of 10 respondents were at high risk of burn-out, and that seven out of 10 reported that their mental health and well-being had been negatively affected by their work or study. This is a situation that cannot continue. The impact it has on well-being is a serious risk to these workers and to their families as well, and to the future of our pharmacy services in Wales. And, of course, this also raises then, doesn't it, concerns around patient safety. Minister, inevitably, working long hours without taking a physical or mental break can lead to that increase in dispensing errors and, of course, other patient safety issues.
So, I would be grateful if the Minister could respond to those particular points: how we can tackle burn-out. I will say in closing that I do agree with James Evans on his recommendation of degree-level apprenticeships. This is something that we should be looking at a lot wider, but certainly in the pharmacy service, and if that can be supported by the Government, I would very much welcome that being addressed in your response to today's debate. But, I thank all our pharmacists and all our pharmacy staff and I do thank the Welsh Conservatives for tabling today's motion. Diolch yn fawr.

Laura Anne Jones AC: I want to thank my colleagues Russell and Darren, obviously, for bringing this debate forward today.
Pharmacies played a crucial role during the pandemic, and they have been vital, as has already been outlined, in supporting primary and secondary care. They have supported the national roll-out of the COVID-19 vaccine, helping to get jabs in arms so that the United Kingdom could get back to normal and move on from the pandemic as quickly as possible. They have, very importantly, as has already been outlined—and I think this is a crucial, crucial role—reduced the visits to GP surgeries. They've played an enormous part in that, particularly during the pandemic, at a time of intense pressure on the NHS, as my colleague Russell George outlined earlier with the stats that he provided.
And as Russell also said, I've seen first-hand the work that they've done, and as Russell said, they play an enormous role in relieving GPs and it is so vital, as other colleagues have outlined, that we have awareness of what exactly they do and all the roles that they play. They do do an incredible amount. I visited alongside Russell Goodway, who is the chief executive of Community Pharmacy Wales, the Evans Pharmacy in Cwmcarn in my region, and I was—. It became very apparent how absolutely vital the service that they provide is in that community. I also discussed the impact of the pandemic and the increasingly important roles that pharmacies play within their communities. However, we now see pharmacies, as has been said already by Jack Sargeant just now, under a huge amount of stress and some at breaking point. A recent Royal Pharmaceutical Society survey found that nine in 10 respondents were at breaking point. This obviously can't continue. Mental health, as we all know, is absolutely fundamentally important, and we need targeted and proper support and investment from the Welsh Government in this regard.
A good start would be to significantly increase the number of training spots for pharmacists, to support them, to fill the many voids that we see popping up throughout Wales, and as my colleague James Evans just outlined, I think degree apprenticeships for them is a brilliant idea. Not only do we need to see more trained pharmacists here in Wales, but Wales's pharmacists also face levels of bureaucracy like nowhere else in the UK, and they have to cope with the most basic of technology, which I also saw on my visit. I actually worked in a pharmacy in Usk, many moons ago, myself, delivering drugs to people—the right sort. [Laughter.] Not the 'fun' ones. But I did see first-hand there that they were still using fax machines. I mean, it was just ridiculous in this day and age.
So, the technology, it's absolutely fundamental that that needs to change. But e-prescribing, as has already been said, and the sharing of medical records, for example, is not routinely available here in Wales. It's very welcome, the Government's commitment to it, as outlined by my colleagues, but, by contrast, England and Scotland had both been e-prescribing over a decade ago. It's a shame that this Welsh Government is so far behind in that regard, and I do reiterate the calls from Russell George that they are speeded up in that way. The Welsh Labour Government has failed to modernise our pharmacies and bring them into the twenty-first century. Instead, we're left with an old, bureaucratic, heavily stressed system. Quite simply, our pharmacists and patients deserve better. Our communities need our local pharmacies. Thank you.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I want to focus on one element of the motion: e-prescribing. Arguing about IT systems within the health service is one of those anachronistic things, isn't it? The health sector breaks new ground on almost a daily basis with technology, but the IT systems are still in the last quarter of the last century. Some surgeries are still reliant on fax machines. If I was to talk about faxes to my children, they'd have no idea what I was on about. Indeed, they'd tell me off for swearing, probably.
Laura Anne Jones mentioned earlier that England and Scotland introduced e-prescribing 10 years ago. Denmark started e-prescribing back in the 1990s. The first e-prescription was sent in Sweden in 1983, and a number of other nations operate e-prescribing successfully.
I want to pay tribute at this point to the excellent work that pharmacists on the Llŷn peninsula do in Dwyfor Meirionnydd. Fferyllwyr Llŷn have prepared the ground many times. We heard recently about the prescription lockers that have been introduced by Fferyllwyr Llŷn. They broke new ground by providing prescriptions for illnesses themselves, taking great pressure off surgeries and releasing them to focus on more serious cases. And, of course, Fferyllwyr Llŷn were the first providers to provide COVID vaccinations. There's a saying in English that necessity is the mother of invention, and that is certainly true of rural communities. And our rural communities have often had to find alternative and better ways of operating, as we have seen with Fferyllwyr Llŷn.
In the same way, the D Powys Davies Pharmacy in Blaenau Ffestiniog, part of Fferyllwyr Llŷn, has started the process of digitising prescriptions, showing that that internal process makes things smoother for the patient and better for the pharmacy too. But it’s also led to fewer errors when patients collect their medicines and better quality control. This is central to the demand for e-prescribing. Indeed, according to research from the University of Oxford, 17 per cent of hospital visits occur as a result of errors in medicine, and around half of them are avoidable. The argument, therefore, for safeguarding people’s health by providing e-prescriptions is clear, but we need a central system in order to make the most of the technology available to us.
COVID and the social changes that we have seen as a result of the COVID—. Therefore it’s about time that we saw the transfer of prescribing to the digital realm as people work from home, including GPs, and they can’t necessarily work from home at the moment. Or if you go on holiday, you could pick up a prescription in another city without having to go to your home pharmacy. Consider us here today. I've had to travel down from north Wales to Cardiff. If I needed to collect an asthma pump, I could do that in Cardiff without having to travel back home. So, there are clear benefits.
I want to conclude with one word of warning. We’ve already heard that there is hope of having e-prescribing within the next three to five years, which is to be welcomed—I’m sure that the Minister will expand on this—but to do it properly, we need to ensure that you do it in full co-operation with community pharmacies. There is a risk, of course, that this could push more and more pharmacies online and that as we see more e-prescribing, online pharmacists will benefit from it. This would not only be a risk to the viability of community pharmacies, but this would also break the personal link, which is so often necessary, as pharmacists know most of the patients and customers in their community, and that link will continue to be important for the future. So, in developing these new systems, you must do that in full collaboration with community pharmacies, ensuring that they will continue to be central to the process of distributing medicines. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say in terms of what consultation she has held with community pharmacies in ensuring that they are central to that process. Thank you.

Gareth Davies AS: It's a pleasure to take part in our debate this afternoon. I would like to put on record my thanks to all the community pharmacists for the amazing work they did and continue to do during the pandemic and beyond. The arrival of COVID on these shores exacerbated the issues that have been facing primary care for years. We simply haven't been training enough GPs to meet the health and care needs of Wales. Thankfully, pharmacists have been able to fill the gap in taking pressure off not only primary care but also secondary care, and pharmacists across Wales are able to deal with common ailments and queries about prescription medication. And, thanks to the Choose Well campaign, more and more people are aware of the role pharmacists play in the nation's healthcare.
Our excellent community pharmacies save tens of thousands of GP appointments each week and divert thousands from the doors of our accident and emergency and minor injury departments. They have also played a crucial role in dealing with COVID-19. Not only have they provided vital supplies of COVID tests, masks and sanitisers, but many have also helped with the roll-out of vaccines. During the summer, I had the pleasure of visiting Rowlands Pharmacy in my hometown of Prestatyn. Rowlands, in addition to their usual services, also doubled up as a vaccination centre for the community, building upon their considerable expertise in delivering the annual flu jab. They helped ensure Prestatyn residents got their COVID vaccination, and I have no doubt they will play a key role in delivering future COVID boosters, as it's highly likely we will need annual jabs.
Sadly, the strain on primary care will continue to bite, due in no small part to an ageing workforce. The demands on our community pharmacies will continue to rise. However, our pharmacies are facing their own workforce issues. In my local health board alone, Betsi Cadwaladr, there are over 152 full-time equivalent vaccines—vacancies. I got my vaccines and vacancies mixed up there. [Laughter.] That equates to one vacancy per pharmacy across north Wales. The pressure this is placing staff under is immense, and according to the industry bodies, around 90 per cent of staff are at risk of burnout. The Welsh Government must give greater priority to the training and recruitment of community pharmacists. They must also tackle barriers to smarter working. A move to e-prescribing, which has been mentioned a few times during this debate so far, in three to five years is simply not good enough, particularly when we've got GPs still using paper prescription pads and fax machines, as the Member for Dwyfor Meirionydd rightly said, in the national health service.
Most of the other UK nations dropped this archaic prescription pad in favour of electronic prescriptions over a decade ago, and there's even reference to e-prescribing coming in as far back as the 1990s in Denmark. It goes to show how we are falling behind in that sense. A Birmingham NHS trust has just completed the roll-out of their second generation electronic prescribing and medications administration software. Built on cloud technology, it grants patients and healthcare professionals easy and secure access to patient and medication records. The trust covers a similar population to Wales, and they're already moving their e-prescription service to the cloud, but ours still remains a pipe dream in Wales. We're small enough to be agile, as well, but as with everything in the public sector, it's overcomplicated by red tape, bureaucracy and a silo mentality. We only have to look at the roll-out of the 111 service to get an idea of how badly we need to perform in modernising our healthcare. If we truly value our community pharmacy services and patient care, we have to get a grip on this issue right now.

Joel James MS: I would first like to echo the comments of other Members in recognising the outstanding contribution that pharmacists have made during the COVID pandemic. Without their commitment and willingness to keep their doors open, our country would have suffered a great deal more and undoubtedly more lives would have been lost due to COVID-19. I believe everyone here would agree that the trust we place in our pharmacists is well placed, and we should not be fearful of expanding their role within the healthcare sector, in particular the roll-out of the clinical community pharmacy service and the ability of pharmacists to independently prescribe medication for common ailments. I welcome, and I know residents in my region welcome, community pharmacies because it increases the ability of some patients to better access appropriate care without the need to visit a GP. While this has the benefit of taking pressure off other parts of the healthcare system, it also means that pharmacy services can be better adapted around patients' needs, and, quite significantly, pharmacy teams have more interaction with patients, which translates into improved patient understanding of the medicines they take.

Joel James MS: This is where I'd like to pick up on my first point. In Wales, we have a significant increase in the dispensing of opioids, which, as we all know, are a class of drug found in the opium poppy plant, are generally prescribed for pain relief and are highly addictive. Some here may be unaware, but opioid prescribing has increased by an average of 30 per cent in Wales in the last 10 years, with almost 1.6 million opioid items being prescribed in Wales just before the pandemic. In Powys alone, they have seen a monumental rise of almost 95 per cent in 10 years. Persistent pains, which much of this opioid prescribing is for, is more prevalent in areas of greater deprivation, as is depression and anxiety, which all add to the pain burden. While persistent pain is not fixed by these analgesics, it is also not fixed by removing them. A significant number of people presenting with pain are not usually aware of the numerous problems with these analgesics, most notably that most of them aren't very effective long term.
With this in mind, I see that the community pharmacy model presents a major opportunity for the healthcare system to help address this rise in opioid use. Pharmacies could become the first port of call for those suffering pain, which may provide other pain relief pathways without the need for opioids. And given significant training and upskilling of staff, community pharmacies could also be used to effectively review patients who are using opioids as a feedback mechanism for GPs. This may help the healthcare system to better understand the effects that opioids have on patients. I'm sure that health boards and the Royal Pharmaceutical Society are more than capable of discerning this point for themselves, so I'm therefore interested to know if there have been any active steps in assessing the capacity of community pharmacies to become the first port of call for those suffering with pain.
The next point I would like to pick up is that whilst the community pharmacy model has massive potential to expand into areas like pain relief, it only really works if there are sufficient pharmacists to take on the role. I understand that there is some debate within the pharmacy community, because some corporate pharmacists say that they cannot fill all their vacancies due to the shortage of pharmacists, and may have to reduce opening hours or close pharmacies. There are, indeed, sufficient numbers of registered pharmacists to fill all roles, and I understand that this issue is more to do with the unacceptable terms and conditions of some pharmacy contracts, and pharmacists suffering, as already mentioned, burn-out from overwork. Given the disappointing results of the recent Pharmacists' Defence Association safe working environment survey, I think the Welsh Government needs to apply considerably more pressure to ensure that high standards of fair pay and fair working conditions are met by pharmacies, and that meeting fair pay and fair working conditions standards should be a prerequisite if they are to keep their NHS contracts.
Finally, I want to address the issue of dispensing at a loss. In real terms, pharmacies have had big cost increases, particularly with the expense of personal protective equipment, which I understand they have not been reimbursed for by the Welsh Government, and also with higher energy prices and increasing costs of drugs. I'm aware that the cost of these drugs, such as certain antidepressants and hormone replacement products, are outstripping the amount the NHS pays the pharmacy for them, which is already predetermined. Unfortunately, this is having major implications, because it reduces the money available for pharmacies to reinvest in services, to pay their staff better wages, and it also creates a possibility that pharmacies may not be able to afford to dispense these drugs, which would have wider knock-on effects as patients may not be able to get the medicines they need. Whilst larger and busier pharmacies may be able to weather this storm of rapid cost increases, smaller independent practices may not, and this means that, inevitably, there is greater potential for these closing, putting more stress and anxiety on people who are already suffering because of illness. I think given the potential knock-on effects of dispensing at a loss, it would be pertinent to know if this Government has any plans to support these pharmacies financially when they're exposed to these significantly higher drug costs. Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd.

I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services, Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr. Firstly, can I thank the Conservatives for raising today's motion? Isn't it refreshing to be able to agree on something for a change? I certainly welcome the debate, which provides an opportunity, and has provided an opportunity, for all Senedd Members to put on record our recognition of the contribution of pharmacy teams throughout the pandemic. It also provides an opportunity for me to lay out the comprehensive plans we have in the Welsh Government for community pharmacy in Wales. But also I want to thank you for helping us raise the profile of this important issue in this important week, when we are changing the relationship with our community pharmacies.
Before I continue, I'd like to take a moment to recognise the significant contribution of pharmacy professionals in all parts of the NHS. Pharmacy teams have played a significant role in supporting millions of people, helping keep pressure, as so many have pointed out, off the GPs and hospitals and other public services during this critical time. They've managed shortages of medicines, they've led the introduction of new treatments for COVID-19, and they've used their expertise to ensure the success of Wales's remarkable COVID vaccination programme.
I recognise the impact COVID-19 has had on individuals in pharmacy teams, and I'd like to thank everyone for the dedication and the commitment shown to patient care during these incredibly challenging times. I understand the workforce has been under immense pressure. I'm delighted our contractual reforms, which come into force later this week, will ensure community pharmacists in Wales practise in a way that is professionally rewarding and delivers the best possible outcomes for the people of Wales. Our reforms will ensure we properly utilise pharmacists' knowledge and skills. They provide for a collaborative, innovative and progressive approach to the delivery of pharmaceutical care, maximising the skills of community pharmacy teams to meet the needs of the NHS and people in Wales now and, we hope, for future generations. From April, every community pharmacy in Wales will be able to provide an extended range of clinical services available consistently, offering convenient, accessible NHS services to more people closer to their homes.
Burnout is a concern across all health and social care professions, and we've committed funding for a renewed all-Wales contract for mental health support for our workforce. This was previously known as Health for Health Professionals Wales, and that's now been rebranded as Canopi. The service will provide an equitable, whole-system approach to mental health and well-being support, and pharmacists, pharmacy technicians and pharmacy staff will have full access to the support that Canopi provides. Before I set out the steps we're taking to support community pharmacy, it's also important to make it clear that it's not for Government alone to resolve these issues, and I'm concerned in particular to hear that so many in pharmacies are not offered rest breaks. We're making record investment and have a compelling vision for community pharmacy. Government is playing its part, and so must employers. The vast majority of pharmacy owners support our reforms, investing in their businesses and, importantly, in the people they employ.

Jack Sargeant AC: Will the Minister take an intervention?

Eluned Morgan AC: Of course.

Jack Sargeant AC: I thank the Minister for taking an intervention. You were talking about the Government playing a part, but employers have to play a part. The Member from the Welsh Conservatives before mentioned working conditions. Does the Minister agree with me that the best way to have better working conditions is by joining a trade union?

Eluned Morgan AC: It is absolutely the best way to improve your conditions. I was very pleased to meet with the pharmacy union very recently to discuss some of these very issues.
I want to be clear that pharmacy owners who choose to divest—and I know of many, one in my own community—will not benefit from our reforms. But we will continue to reward those pharmacy owners who work with us to deliver better access and outcomes for the people of Wales. [Interruption.] I'm happy to take an intervention.

Andrew RT Davies AC: As someone who represents the Cardiff and Vale health board area, they have been lamentable in commissioning services in the community through pharmacists. Would you agree that there needs to be greater orientation around the contract so that more services can be contracted to pharmacies, especially in the public health agenda? Because if I look further west, I can find those services in pharmacies in Neath Port Talbot, but I can't find them in Cardiff and the Vale of Glamorgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: So, that's precisely what we're doing. This week, we've got a new framework, we have a new contract, and they'll have to sign up to providing those services, and there's a whole list of services that they sign up for, but this is a new contract that's starting this week. So, this is a new start where we're all clear about what they need to deliver, and they'll get paid for it. We're putting a substantial amount of funds into this. I know and I've heard—my God, I've heard—the urgency around the need to deliver e-prescribing, and I know that you know that I'm incredibly keen to see this rolled out. That work is being led by Digital Health and Care Wales, and progress is being made across four areas of e-prescribing, and that review was published last year, including for primary care. Our plans—and I can reassure you—make sure that that digitalisation of prescriptions is covered in all primary care settings, including community pharmacy. And I expect a pilot, with GPs and community pharmacies, to start very, very soon, and I can assure you that I'm doing all I can to speed up the process. The limiting factor, I'm afraid, is skills, and it's not an issue just for us. I know—. For example, my brother is head of IT in Sony; they're having trouble recruiting people with the technology skills. So, it's not lack of commitment, it's not lack of money. It's about how we recruit more people with the skills, and obviously we need to do a lot more work to make sure that we can recruit the right people with those skills, but that's not something that can be done overnight.

Eluned Morgan AC: We recognise how important it is to ensure that learning time for the pharmacy workforce is protected. By working with Health Education and Improvement Wales, we've funded a pilot for protected learning time for community pharmacists this year. The work of evaluating these schemes will be completed during the coming months, and the result of that work will influence the arrangements for the future.
Finally, in terms of developing the workforce, a great deal of work is being done by Health Education and Improvement Wales. Wales is already acknowledged as an excellent place for pharmacists to train, live and work. Here in Wales we have the highest rate of filling posts for trainee pharmacists, and the highest rates of success in registration exams for pre-foundation pharmacistsacross the whole of the United Kingdom.
Even though they're not part of the contractual arrangements for community pharmacists, we are working very closely with Health Education and Improvement Wales to ensure that things do improve. We have ensured that the training and development opportunities that have been planned by them align closely with our contractual reforms. Specifically, Health Education and Improvement Wales will provide opportunities for community pharmacists to train as independent prescribers. There will also be opportunities for pharmacy technicians to take part in modern apprenticeships every year from 2022-23 onwards, so I can acknowledge that apprenticeships are already coming into force, but I do think it's worth looking into whether degree apprenticeships could be provided in this field.
The Welsh Government will provide financial support for that training. Up to £3,000 will be provided to every pharmacist, and £2,000 will be available for every pharmacy technician. We're also investing in services to support this service and this training.
Funding for prescribing services and independent services in community pharmacies will increase from £1.2 million to £4.2 million from April of this year. This will support our new national service for independent prescribing by pharmacists. So, hopefully, you will see that change that you want to see in the communities because of this new contract.

Minister, you will have to come to an end, please.

Eluned Morgan AC: I am pleased that I can accept today's motion, and I agree with that ambition, over the long term, to improve the situation in our pharmacies across Wales.

I call on Sam Rowlands to respond to the debate.

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Could I first of all start by thanking Members from right across the Chamber today for making some fantastic contributions to our important debate and recognising the exceptional role that pharmacies and pharmacists carry out, and how we can do our part in helping them to enhance their work even further, making the lives of our residents even better. As point 1 of our motion states, pharmacists have carried out vital work throughout the COVID-19 pandemic; that's been acknowledged by everybody in the Chamber here today. But not only this, their crucial role in supporting primary and secondary care, which Members highlighted today as well. Whilst many in society and many of us were able to work from home, pharmacists, many of them, were on the front line, continuing to provide that support and care face to face for people who needed it at the time. And in addition to this, as Members have highlighted, in particular Russell George at the start, but all Members, they were at the forefront supporting the fantastic national roll-out of the COVID-19 vaccine. I'm sure there's a continued role for them to play in that in the future as well.

Sam Rowlands MS: It was really refreshing today—many have mentioned it—the cross-party recognition for this good work, and we can all thank the incredible work that pharmacists have carried out. I'm sure all Members have also had the pleasure of visiting our brilliant pharmacists, something that Gareth Davies mentioned. I've seen first-hand the exceptional role that they carry out in a broad range of services.
So, while closing our debate today, I'd like to focus on three key issues that I think have been highlighted and discussed here today. And the first, as I outlined in point 3 of our motion today: it's clear that our pharmaceutical workforce is under pressure, and near breaking point. Jack Sargeant mentioned this and so did Laura Anne Jones. It's the Royal Pharmaceutical Society's 2021 workforce well-being survey that found that 90 per cent of respondents were at high risk of burn-out, and sadly, one in three had considered leaving the profession altogether. I'm sure Members across the Chamber agree that these statistics are extremely concerning, and now is the time to take action to rectify this. I'm grateful to the Minister for acknowledging that and outlining some of the work that is going to be carried out to deal with these issues.
The second key issue highlighted today is actually that the national clinical community pharmacy service—quite a snappy title there—outlined in point 2 of our motion comes into force on 1 April. And across all benches and encompassed, I believe, in Joel James's contribution, many hope this will alleviate some of the pressures facing pharmacies and pharmacists at the moment. And Russell George in his opening also highlighted that this service has been an innovative wide-ranging agreement between Welsh Government, Welsh NHS and Community Pharmacy Wales. This service will be based on four key themes: expand the clinical role of community pharmacists, skills development, quality, and integration within primary care, and the funding element as well, which has been highlighted by many Members in the Chamber today. It's hoped that this service will tackle workforce issues, alleviate pressure on GP services and increase vital communication within our communities.
And a third area, I believe, was highlighted here today, and has been clear in the debate. It's outlined in point 4(a) of our motion, and a number of Members highlighted this, including Rhun ap Iorwerth and Mabon ap Gwynfor, and Gareth Davies again, about the need to speed out the roll-out of technological advances here in Wales. Technology here is basic at best. E-prescribing, the sharing of medical records, not routinely available—many Members mentioned that—mean that our pharmacists and GPs spend less time with patients. And this contrast was highlighted by Members also with England, Scotland and further afield, both having—England and Scotland—having e-prescribing there for over a decade, and I'm sure we all agree that this simply isn't right, and has a negative impact on the interest of both patients and staff. And, again, I thank the Minister for the commitments being made in this regard, and the desire to see this delivered as quickly as possible.
So, to conclude, Deputy Presiding Officer, our motion today highlights the exceptional role that pharmacists carried out during the pandemic, from supporting primary and secondary care into supporting the fantastic national roll-out of the COVID-19 vaccine. Today's been a great opportunity for us to come together to celebrate their work and to thank them across our parties. Nevertheless, it has become clear from today's debate that pharmacists are still under extreme pressure and stress and more needs to be done to reduce bureaucracy, reduce the burden on staff, and ultimately lead to a better service for those who need it. And in light of this, I'm delighted to hear and to see that both the Government benches, Labour, and Plaid Cymruhaven't amended today's debate. I'm grateful for their contributions throughout this as well and I'm looking forward to seeing the cross-party support. Once again I thank all Members for their contributions in today's debate, along with the many practical and real solutions being offered. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? Once again, I haven't heard an objection. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Plaid Cymru Debate: High-risk tips

The following amendments have been selected: amendments 1 and 2 in the name of Darren Millar and amendment 3 in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Item 7 today is the Plaid Cymru debate on high-risk tips, and I call on Delyth Jewell to move the motion.

Motion NDM7972 Siân Gwenllian
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes that more than 300 tips are known to be classed as high risk, and the increased rainfall associated with climate change could further destabilise tips across the valleys.
2. Calls on the Welsh Government to ensure that high-risk tips are made safe by:
a) asking local authorities to release information about where high-risk tips are located;
b) insisting that the UK Government provides funding to repurpose, reclaim and remediate tips;
c) installing early-warning systems wherever possible;
d) reinstating the land reclamation grant to help deal with risks on tips.
3. Calls on the Welsh Government to publish a national plan of action to help regenerate the areas surrounding the tips.

Motion moved.

Delyth Jewell AC: Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. What was the cost of coal to the Valleys? What price was demanded of our people to pay for the wealth others had taken? Do we measure that cost in bodies buried? Should it be calculated in lost livelihoods, lost limbs, in lungs thick with disease and dust? Or do we measure it in the muck and dirt taken from the ground and left to pock and scar our skyline?
Across Wales, there are more than 2,000 disused coal tips and tips—an ugly legacy, a potent symbol of what was taken from us. We've become used to them blocking our view. You visit almost any Valleys town and you'll find a tip looming above it, like a spectre in a nightmare. But since the Tylorstownlandslide in 2020, that near miss that might have been so catastrophic—since that day, we've awakened again to the risk these tips pose. No longer just an eyesore, but next-door nightmares, muted time bombs that might go off at any moment.
More than 300 tips in Wales are classed as being high risk. We don't know where all of them are, which is why our motion calls for local authorities to be asked to release information about the location of the tips, to promote trust and accountability. We agree with the Law Commission that this information should be made public. We call for early warning systems to be developed, funded and rolled out so that communities can be warned about potential tip failures, just like with other natural disasters like earthquakes. Remote monitors that are used to pick up volcanic activity and tsunamis would sense landslips and raise the alarm, and people living in the vicinity could receive alerts on their mobile phones. These systems would be a godsend, and I'd ask the Minister in his response to provide an update on any roll-out of these systems and how they would be funded.
Our motion talks about the reclamation of the sites where the tips are located, and about the need for a national regeneration plan for these areas so long starved of investment or care. Because deindustrialisation in Wales, in the UK, didn't follow the pattern seen elsewhere in Europe. In France and Germany, redundancies were planned and miners offered training opportunities in sectors like civil engineering. But in the UK, as one former senior executive of the European Coal and Steel Community has put it, 'They look no further than to pension off the miner'. The National Coal Board and Thatcher's Government used redundancy to force agreement on mine closures, and miners were betrayed. No thought was given to the toll unemployment would take on entire communities. And when the mines closed, something of the spirit of these towns went with them, and so one of the most important thriving social and political forces in the history of Wales. The might of the miners all but vanished overnight. Because miners were so much more than what they did underground. There was a camaraderie, of course, a bond that bound men together. But above ground, those forces enriched the towns in the miners halls, eisteddfodau, the libraries, the educational drive and town-hall meeting culture, all led by miners and their families. They may have worked below ground, but their sights were set on the sky.
In one of his poems, Harri Webb reminisces about the colliers coming out of the cwbs at Caeharris station. Men, they said, with 90 per cent dust, who could hit top C as if it never existed. The sacrifices those men made, Dirprwy Lywydd, the horrors they endured, and still they sang.
Until the Aberfan disaster in the 1960s, no legislation was in place to provide for the management of coal tips. It took that disaster and the deaths of 28 adults and 116 children for Westminster to consider the death traps they'd laid above our heads. But the Mines and Quarries Act is no longer fit for this purpose. It was enacted when mines were still operational, and the standards that were required in the 1980s and 1990s are no longer suitable in an era of climate change. There is no duty to ensure the safety of coal tips, and councils have no power to intervene until there are concerns that a tip is unstable. We shouldn't be waiting for another near-disaster to happen before preventative measures are taken.
And who should foot the bill? Westminster conveniently argues that this is a devolved matter. They don't much like devolution up there except for when it gets them out of paying their dues. Dirprwy Lywydd, you cannot devolve the past; you cannot use time travel to avoid awkward truths. These tips are a legacy of an industrial past that fuelled the Royal Navy's fleet, that powered railways, made British industrialists rich and that kept the miners and their communities in poverty. Coal created unimaginable wealth. The first million-pound deal in the history of the world was struck in the Coal Exchange in Cardiff off the back of Valleys coal. But none of it was spent in Bargoed or in Brythdir. Our valleys had coal deposits, but what deposits were laid for our future? They brokered a deal with Mammon, mortgaged the miners' health and their safety to get the quick and easy profits from the pits, but the repayment on that mortgage wasn't one paid by pit owners or shareholders. It is beyond the realms of reason, of morality, of any question of truth or decency to argue that an institution that did not exist when the men laboured and died should pay to clean up the mess that those industrialists left behind—the dust that blots out the sky in the same way it choked their lungs.
We are talking about significant sums of money, of course. The Coal Authority has estimated that the cost of making tips safe will be between £500 million and £600 million over the next decade. But is it really seemly to squabble about that payment? Because these valleys have too long been short changed and robbed of decency. In 1913—and I'll close with this, Dirprwy Lywydd—439 miners and one rescuer lost their lives in the Senghenydd colliery disaster, the worst mining disaster in British history. There was an inquiry, punishments were imposed, the manager paid a fine of £24, the colliery company paid £10. It was calculated that approximately one shilling had to be paid for every man and boy who died. In today's money, that would amount to £13. I've heard it said that widows weren't even paid the full day's wages for the day that the miners died, because they had died before their shift had ended. This is the legacy we are talking about—the toll taken by coal on our communities. Westminster has a chance here to do one small thing to make good on their debt, outstanding as it is, the debt they owe to those miners and their towns—a chance to make a payment, an acknowledgement, so that, in the company of those memories, they should no longer be ashamed. In all decency, dear God, they should take it.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

I have selected the three amendments to the motion. I call on the Deputy Minister for Climate Change to formally move amendment 3.

Amendment 3—Lesley Griffiths
Add as new point at end of motion:
Calls on the Welsh Government to engage local communities to inform the approach to future tip management and tip reclamation taking full advantage of opportunities for job creation, training and upskilling and securing wider benefits.

Amendment 3 moved.

Lee Waters AC: Formally.

Thank you. Therefore, I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move amendments 1 and 2 tabled in the name of Darren Millar—Janet Finch-Saunders.

Amendment 1—Darren Millar
Add as new point after point 1 and renumber accordingly:
Recognises that coal-tip safety is a devolved competence.

Amendment 2—Darren Millar
Delete point 2 and replace with:
Calls on the Welsh Government to:
a) publish information on the exact locations of high-risk tips;
b) install early-warning systems for high-risk tips, where possible;
c) create a new coal tip supervisory authority to establish a new safety regime, conduct risk assessments and tip management plans;
d) formalise agreements between owners, land users and the coal tip supervisory authority to act in an emergency.

Amendments 1 and 2 moved.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you to Plaid. Diolch, Llywydd. Thank you, Plaid Cymru, for tabling this debate today. At heart, there is only one point that we disagree on, and that's your insistence that it is the UK Government that provides all the funding to repurpose, reclaim and remediate these coal tips.
I'm sure my colleagues on those benches there have actually read the recently published report on regulating coal tip safety in Wales, and it does clearly state that coal tip safety falls under devolved competence, and that's a competence that you've had here for 22 years. So, isn't it ironic that whilst, in this debate, Plaid Cymru are calling on the UK Government to pay for a devolved responsibility, in others, Rhys ab Owen bemoans the fact that the UK Government legislates on other devolved matters. Rhun—my colleague Rhun from north Wales—ap Iorwerth, is seeking the full devolution of the management of the Crown Estate and its assets in Wales, and the leader of Plaid Cymru, Adam Price, is pursuing an economically unfeasible independent Wales.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I know that Plaid Cymru really want Welsh sovereignty to rest with unelected commissioners in Brussels, but the truth of the matter is that it is the Welsh Government who are responsible for coal tip safety. And let's be honest, there is now a co-operation agreement in place, so I'm sure that you can work together to try and make some sense out of this issue. The Welsh Government has basically acknowledged their duty to find funding by making an additional allocation of £4.5 million of revenue over three years, and total capital funding of £44 million to support essential coal tip maintenance. And I do agree with Delyth Jewell earlier, the big issue really is about finding out—. Local authorities, I do believe, need the resources and we all need to know exactly where these high-risk tips are. Rather than wasting further Senedd time talking about lobbying the UK Government simply just to pay, why don't we work together cross party to work out where the about £0.5 billion needed over the next 10 years is going to come from. I would suspect that, surely, working with the UK Government is a way forward, but, again, there is work that you need to do, as a Welsh Government, in terms of working with local authorities to identify exactly where that risk is.
Another irony in this debate is that, whilst I do agree with the Welsh Government amendment, and I do want to see you engage with local communities, it is unacceptable that you have kept those people in your own communities in the dark as to the location of these high-risk tips. We also need to see the installation of early warning systems where possible. Despite there being 327 high-risk tips, only 70 of these have been part of the programme of technology trials, sensor equipment and earth observation techniques. We have been informed previously that the Welsh Government are looking at additional remote sensing and real-time telemetric monitoring systems. So, Minister, if you can just advise, what progress has been made today? I would be grateful if you could state how many of the 2,456 tips have a warning system in place.
Finally, I would like to move on to the report published by the Law Commission last week. We covered some of this yesterday, but I would like to reiterate the importance of establishing a single supervisory body with the responsibility for the safety of coal tips, and over 90 per cent of respondents agreed with this proposal. However, I'm concerned, because, yesterday, I asked this question and you didn't respond, Deputy Minister. So, will you say whether you agree for this to be a new independent and separate body? It would make no sense to make it a division of NRW, especially given that it already—NRW that is—needs around 270 additional staff to carry out the responsibilities it already holds. I hope it will be a truly separate body, because if we act on the recommendations it will be under strict important duties, such as to arrange the compilation of a risk assessment and tip management plan for any tip included on the register, and allocating a risk classification to each tip, based on the inspection reports and risk assessments.
Finally, when it comes to the lower risk tips, there is an absence of power under the 1969 Act to ensure proactive regular maintenance work. Around 80 per cent of respondents supported the proposals for tip maintenance agreements, providing for the carrying out by the owner of operations specified in the tip management plan. Such agreements could act to motivate and facilitate maintenance, so I hope that Welsh Government and, indeed, Members here will be pursuing this idea.
I'm out of time to discuss anymore of the report recommendations, but I do look forward to reading the Deputy Minister's detailed response to this commission in due course. And I do hope that we can all work together, stop the bickering, and that we act on the report urgently and we all work together and co-operate for the benefit of our communities across Wales. They deserve no less than that. Diolch.

Heledd Fychan AS: Our communities deserve justice, and this is about accountability and putting right a historic injustice. And I think the question to Janet Finch-Saunders's comments is: who got rich from coal? And that's the crux of the matter and why we are pressing on the UK Government to put right this historic injustice. The arguments you mentioned in terms of my colleagues putting forward about the things we'd like to see devolved are about the future of Wales—

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Will you take an intervention?

Heledd Fychan AS: Of course I will.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Would you acknowledge, though, that we had Labour Governments at the times that mines were operable?

Heledd Fychan AS: Certainly. I think any Government should be able to be accountable, and it has been in the UK Government. But, at this time, it is your Conservative Government, and they have the opportunity to put this right.

Heledd Fychan AS: As expressed so eloquently by Delyth Jewell, so much of our modern history as a nation has been driven by the industrial revolution, when coal become such a crucial fuel. Despite this, the history of mining for coal goes back centuries before then, with the Romans mining for coal in Britain. Indeed, there is evidence of mining in Blaenavon dating back to the fourteenth century, and, in Mostyn, as far back as 1261. But the opening of the first coal mine in Wales in the Rhondda Valley in 1790 was the pivotal moment, presaging the transformation of the landscape and economy of the coal mining regions, as people went in their thousands to work and live there. But, as coal from Wales travelled to all four corners of the world, and as some, including the UK Government, profited handsomely from it, our communities and people suffered as a result of a dirty and dangerous industry. And now, of course, we continue to suffer the after effects, not just economic and social, but in terms of the damage caused by the industry to our environment, which led to the increase in carbon in our atmosphere.
As we saw in February 2020, with the devastating floods, post-industrial areas are now at greatest risk of the effects of the climate crisis, with the risk of flooding and landslides, such as the one we saw in Tylorstown, which caused a great deal of anxiety. Indeed, studies have suggested that there will be an increase of 6 per cent in rainfall in south Wales every winter by 2050, something that is already leading to instability in rivers, on land and, importantly, in coal tips. This isn’t just a matter of safety, but a matter of historical justice and climate justice. The UK Government profited from the benefits offered by the coal industry, ripping wealth from these communities that were at the industry’s heart, only for them to be cast aside afterwards.

Heledd Fychan AS: People from the Rhondda and other coalfield areas did not reap the benefits and yet continue to be impacted negatively today. Coal tips are just one example of a bitter legacy of the coal industry and how our communities cannot escape from this whilst they continue to live in their shadows. It's incomprehensible to me, and many others, I’m sure, that this is an issue that remains today, especially following the horror of what happened in Aberfan. How money was not found before now to ensure the safety of our people and provide peace of mind to them is beyond belief.
Reclaiming and managing the tips also provides opportunities, with the Law Commission’s recently published report touching upon the role education can play in contributing to solutions to the issue of disused tips. It's noted that there have been problems with a loss of specialism in the field, and that, with many experienced inspectors now retired or nearing retirement, the shortage of experienced professionals was likely to worsen. There is therefore an opportunity to capture that knowledge and experience of these inspectors and to establish a programme to mentor new inspectors.

Heledd Fychan AS: It's also worth thinking about the value of these sites in terms of heritage, and, as part of the commission’s consultation, Cadw and the Association of Local Government Archaeological Officers emphasised that some tips have value for their heritage, and that any restoration work should bear this in mind. The coal tips in the Blaenavon industrial landscape, for example, are designated by the UNESCO World Heritage Committee as a world heritage site. A number of historic coal tips have been registered as historic environment sites, and this is something that is considered in the planning process.

Heledd Fychan AS: But, after decades of silence on some of these coal tips, the shock and horror felt by many following what happened in Tylorstown as a result of storm Dennis has at last prompted further discussion and action. It was a stark reminder of the dangers that remain as a result of our industrial history, and how these communities have been abandoned by the UK Government following the decline of the industry. Allowing this risk to continue is unacceptable.
Just because something hasn’t been done doesn’t mean that this should be allowed to continue, and I hope today that we can come together cross-party to send a clear message to the UK Government that funding must be provided to put right what they should have done long before now, and a clear message to our communities that we will do everything in our power to put this right.

Hefin David AC: There was one statement that was made yesterday by the Minister in his oral statement to the Chamber. He said:
'The Under-Secretary of State for Wales, David T.C. Davies, told the House of Commons Welsh Affairs Committee that
''if the Welsh Labour Government think that those coal tips are unsafe, they must act now.... They have the money to do it."'
Simple as that, and, of course, the Deputy Minister said,
'It's not us who say it's unsafe'—
the Welsh Government—
'it's the Coal Authority...and we do not have the funding to do it.'
It is really that simple. So, I think it's easy for Janet Finch-Saunders to say, 'Let's put the politics aside,' but if in Westminster they are refusing to acknowledge even that there is an issue that they are responsible for, then that is not going to solve the problem. It really is that simple.
Now, in my submission—. Before I say my submission, I should also say that Senedd Members making a submission to the Law Commission's report were Huw Irranca-Davies, Heledd Fychan, Vikki Howells, Joel James and Sioned Williams. So, well done to those Members for making those submissions, because they are important so that the voices of your communities and my community are heard. So, that was vital. Caerphilly council also made a submission.
In mine, I said,
'There need to be enhanced powers for the appropriate public authorities (devolved or otherwise) to regulate privately-owned coal tips in Wales'.
So, the regulation of privately owned tips is vital, I think, in the White Paper.
'The Welsh Government requires additional funding (most likely from the UK Government)'—
though not in whole—
'to address the cost of remediating publicly-owned coal tips in Wales.'
So, those are the key points that I have made in my submission. I'd also say that Caerphilly council made four key points, three of which I agree with, and one of which I don't. So, Caerphilly council said that CCBC supports the creation of an overarching supervisory authority, echoing what I said, if it works flexibly—and this is important, Deputy Minister—allowing local authorities to use existing expertise and offering additional resources where required. They also argued that the coal tip authority maintenance agreement should be standardised across Wales.
Now, Caerphilly council has had that expertise. I've met with Caerphilly council senior officers, the director of the environment, last year, and I've spoken to the chief executive and the leader. We have a tips register, which I've seen, and there are category D tips. It's important to remember that if a tip is category D, it doesn't necessarily coincide with it being of immediate risk. The assurance I've had from the Caerphilly council director of the environment is that there are no tips in Caerphilly, certainly in my constituency, but in the borough as a whole, that are of immediate risk. We are aware of one that is category D in particular, and it is being monitored on a monthly basis, and if there are heavy rains, then it is monitored on more than a monthly basis, but it isn't of immediate risk.
Now, one thing I'd say to all political candidates in the local government elections is that you will not be thanked by residents for standing on tips and pointing at them as if they're in some kind of imminent danger. It is not a wise thing to do to make this a party political issue in the local government elections. The work is being done. The Law Commission report, to which every party in this Chamber has submitted, is taking that forward and is taking the correct action. Frightening people, by standing on specific tips, I think, is irresponsible.
Now, what Caerphilly council says regarding the register and having a public register, they said that the most prominent reason given against making the contents of the register public was the risk of blight on properties adjacent or near to high-risk tips, with an impact on land values and property prices and on the cost of insurance. There could also be an impact on properties built on remediated sites. That was emphasised by a number of councils, including Caerphilly.
I've spoken to Caerphilly today, and I think there is a balance between frightening people and also providing public information, and that is where I've got a point of difference. I think there should be a public register, it should be publicly available, but it should also contain those things that demonstrate the difference between immediate risk and the kinds of risks that are there.
So, Caerphilly council also said that the risk classification system should allow sub-categories of risk identifiable by suffix, e.g. instability, flooding, pollution and combustion, and that is in the Law Commission report as well. I think that needs to be recognised in the White Paper. I think that would then go some way to assuage the problem of publishing the at-risk register, and I think Caerphilly council would concede on that. Indeed, they said to me there was nothing in the recommendations from the Law Commission's report that concerned them unduly. In fact, they said the key issue, of course, comes back to funding.
So, we need to take a responsible approach. I don't want to get into a party-political fight on it, but Westminster do need to stump up the money, and I would like the Welsh Government and the White Paper to contain some of the issues that I've raised today.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: The manner in which Wales was exploited for its coal, draining our land of its mineral wealth and the vast profits that flowed from this resource came at a huge cost to local life and limb. This exploitation of the human cost of coal remains a scar on this so-called union. Now, we are being told by Westminster that we must bear the costs of making our communities safe. We're told that we must now find the funds to avert the disastrous consequences that can result from coal spoil landslide, disastrous consequences that we are sadly familiar with in Wales.
The behaviour of the Westminster Government on this is shameful, and it will not be forgotten. In my region, there are 145 high-risk coal tips. In every community that lies in the shadow of such a tip, there will be much unease until these tips are made safe. This will be a particular concern when there is heavy rain—something we can expect more of in the future due to the climate crisis. The remedial work cannot happen soon enough.
There is a question to consider around how we develop coal tips once they have been made safe. Many coal spoils have become important places for wildlife. Indeed, new species have been discovered at such sites in recent years. They have provided a much needed refuge for species rapidly declining in our modern impoverished landscapes. By linking up with traditional habitats, they also act as stepping stones in the environment, allowing species to move freely across the landscape, and natural habitats would also be much more fragmented if not for colliery spoil.
In regenerating areas surrounding tips during reclamation processes, we should consider the value of these tips, the areas around them, and maximise the benefits, which are geological—they provide access to fossils and minerals; archeological—historical structures and remains can be found amongst the spoil; historical—they offer a visual reminder of our rich coal-mining history that helped create and shape our country, and they also tell stories of family and landscape links; cultural—colliery spoil is an important part of our cultural identity in south Wales; social—often, due to their often open access and proximity to settlements, they are readily used by local people for recreational activities, providing physical and mental health benefits, as they often provide the only open access areas for local people to get outdoors with nature; and, finally, visual—they form visible features that are significant in the local landscape and have strong cultural resonance. They're used in regional and local interpretation.
An example within my region of industrial heritage being connected to the new generation can be found in the development of the Six Bells red paint. This sees leftover waste from a local colliery recycled as pigment and used to create a number of special ochre paints that are unique to the village. I would like to know, therefore, what plans this Government has to link our industrial heritage to our post-industrial communities, to increase awareness for the next generation, to protect much needed open spaces for leisure, and to explore tourism opportunities. Diolch yn fawr.

Sioned Williams MS: Our industrial heritage has helped shape our nation. The history of our people can be read in our landscape. Entire communities were built around industry, they provided jobs, a living, and a sense of common identity. The reach and impact of Welsh history was felt far beyond our borders, reshaping the global economy and the way of life for countless people. But for everything it gave, it took; a legacy that equally inspired and injured, that built lives and communities, but has left chronic health conditions, persistent poverty and deep environmental scars.

Sioned Williams MS: Across my region of South Wales West, there are more than 900 disused tips, with over 600 of them being within Neath Port Talbot, where I live. The overwhelming majority of these are deemed lower risk, but 39 are within the higher risk categories. It's important to remember that coal tips are not the only type of tip that must be made safe.
In Godre'r-graig, in the Swansea valley, for example, the threat from a quarry spoil tip has been a source of anxiety for many years. The quarry spoil tip has been assessed as posing a medium hazard risk to the community below, and the geology of the mountain on which it sits, which is prone to landslips, together with the springs and surrounding ground water, has created a situation that has caused upheaval and uncertainty. Homes are hard to insure, some families have been uprooted, and since 2019 the children of Godre’rgraig Primary School have been educated in portakabins in a school miles away from their village, often without the provision of hot meals, due to the council's assessment of the risk of the tip to their school. This left parents, governors and pupils absolutely distraught.
A report provided by the Earth Science Partnership—the experts commissioned by Neath Port Talbot Council to inspect the site—identified a medium-level risk from this quarry spoil tip near the school, which is affected by ground water. The investigation found that if the stream became blocked as a result of a severe weather event, there was a possibility that water levels and pressures in the tip could induce material to flow downhill. The cost of removal of this tip alone is estimated to be likely over £6 million.
Many communities across my region and others live under a similar shadow. They live in fear every time it rains, and action on this is long overdue. If these tips do indeed pose such a threat, then our communities must be safeguarded. We know the increased rainfall associated with climate change has the potential to further destabilise tips. Studies have suggested a 6 per cent increase during winters in south Wales by the 2050s, and this risk will only increase. Action is overdue. But this is not a simple safety issue, this is a matter of historical, social and climate justice.
It's therefore essential that action is taken immediately to identify and publish information relating to the tips that pose the highest risk, to engage with communities, and make the tips safe. The arguments for a publicly available register of tips are clear. Respondents to the Law Commission's consultation that were in favour of making a tip register publicly accessible relied most commonly on the need to promote public trust, accountability and transparency. As the Coal Action Network put it:
'We think it is vital that the tip register be made open-access and user-friendly for public trust and accountability—particularly for the communities that have suffered in the shadow of coal tips, with little recourse to action.'
So, I'd like to re-emphasise that our debate doesn't just focus on coal tips. Wales’s industrial base was far more diverse, and so is the waste that was left behind. Coal mining often included the extraction of other commercial minerals, for example, fire clay and brick clay, that would have contributed to the spoil.
The Law Commission's report provides information on types of tips, which are visually indistinguishable from tips from just coal mining, composed of predominantly shaley material, formed from widespread mining of ironstone nodules for early ironworks, and lesser workings of seatearth for brick making. Such tips are widespread across the south Wales coalfield. These tips must also be considered in any type of removal work or regeneration efforts.
There is, obviously, a cost to all this, but the cost of inaction would be far greater, and these tips and the potential risk they pose, such as the one in Godre'r-graig, which is already causing huge upheaval and disruption to communities, must be taken into account. Communities that have been the bedrock of Welsh industry, and have paid a high enough price for that through the generations, deserve to be safe and they deserve remedy, not the loss of their village school, the heart of their community. The UK Government must acknowledge their responsibility in this matter. I hope we can send a clear message today on behalf of our communities to that end.

The Deputy Minister for Climate Change now to contribute to the debate—Lee Waters.

Lee Waters AC: Well, Llywydd, as the son, grandson and great-grandson of a miner, it is my privilege to respond to the debate this afternoon, and I think, on the whole, what an excellent debate it has been. Nearly 40 per cent of the UK's disused coal tips are in Wales—40 per cent—and our communities are disproportionately affected by the coal tips. We know that there are nearly 2,500 disused coal tips, with 327 in the higher rated category. Now, these are interim categories and reflect the potential to cause a risk to safety and so are the subject of more frequent inspections. It does not mean they're an immediate threat, as Hefin David so well put it in his contribution. And it is the Welsh Government who are funding the Coal Authority to make these inspections, with councils carrying out the maintenance identified through the inspections.
Now, the motion refers to 'high-risk tips', but we must be clear that being placed in a higher rated category is not the same as being higher risk, and the language we use is important. As Hefin David said, frightening people is irresponsible. And he pointed out the difficulties of prematurely publishing the locations of all the tips. Janet Finch-Saunders said that this was unacceptable. But, we have shared the information with local authorities and local resilience forums to help them to develop management plans. What would be unacceptable would be sharing this information publicly when all the work has not been done, and causing alarm, distress and worry, and, as has been mentioned, an impact on properties and causing a great deal of distress when many of these could be fairly inert tips. We've got to get this right. I found Janet Finch-Saunders's comments on that really pretty irresponsible and poorly thought through, if I may say.
The subject of the trials was mentioned. Delyth Jewell asked when the alerts will be available on mobile phones to be rolled out. Now, we are trialling a range of technology, and 70 of the higher rated tips are included in the trials, and these go from tilt meters to satellite ground movement monitoring. These are going to run until about 2024. At the moment, it's envisaged that the alerts will be given to local authorities and not made public, because at the moment some of this technology is unstable, it is unreliable, it is being used for the first time. So, I think it's right that we make sure that it is accurate before we start making it widely accessible.
Let me turn, if I might, now to the issue of the funding. Janet Finch-Saunders said that the Welsh Government is basically acknowledging its responsibility for the problem by allocating £44 million. I found this breathtaking, and I think one thing our mining ancestors would recognise this afternoon is which of the speeches was given by the Tory. I think there's just a fundamental misunderstanding of the emotional importance that this has for our communities. As both Heledd Fychan and Delyth Jewell asked, who benefited from this industry? Yes, our ancestors who worked in the mines benefited somewhat, but the profits belonged to the landed class, many from outside of Wales. The wealth benefited the whole of Britain, not those who worked for it. And it's only morally right that the UK Government recognises its contribution. And the fact we have a litany of Tories, from Simon Hart down, now washing their hands of it shows, for a reason, why they are seen as the party of England and not the party of Wales.
So far, we have spent £1.6 million on inspections. There's going to be a cost of £30 million to bring them up to standard, and a further £5 million a year to maintain them, and then a reclamation cost of around £600 million, and the UK Government has given us £9 million and thinks that's them done. I really would ask them to reflect on that. That is not the sharing union that we talk about, and the more they pull tricks like this, the more it undermines the case for the union. So, I'd ask them to think very carefully about how they play their part in dealing with this legacy of Britain's industry.
The impact of climate change has been talked about, and it really is a dramatic illustration of what impact changing weather patterns are going to have on our communities. The impact on these tips and the consequences for our communities could not be more profound. That's why we need to mitigate the impact of climate change, as well as adapt to the effects already locked in.
Janet Finch-Saunders also asked about the new supervisory authority and will it be independent. Certainly, that is our intention, but we are going to be consulting on this as part of our White Paper, and I hope everybody here responds to that.
There are a number of different reclamation options available in the medium term, and the best option will depend on the specific tip, including its risk status and proximity to sensitive receptors such as communities. An obvious example of a reclaimed tip site is the Spirit of Llynfi Woodland, where over 60,000 trees were planted. So, there is an opportunity here, as well as having to contend with the impact of climate change, of adapting and dealing with the impact of the nature emergency, too.
So, we have the opportunity to effect positive change in these communities, and any longer term programme focusing on reclamation will require thorough engagement with the local communities to explore the wider benefit options, and we have amended the motion this afternoon to accept that. We accept the spirit of the Plaid motion. We think the Tory one is fine so far as it goes, but it has a fundamental missing bit in not accepting that the UK Government has a role. There will be opportunities for our communities from this if we get it right, but if we get it wrong, Llywydd, we will not be forgiven.

Delyth Jewell now, to reply to the debate.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Llywydd. May I start by thanking everyone who's contributed to this debate? It's been very timely and very powerful, I think.

Delyth Jewell AC: Janet, as anticipated, really, falsely linked the ideas about the devolution of present powers and tools for the future with trying to deny responsibility for the wrongs of the past. I don't think it's a waste of Senedd time to try to put this right and, in your heart of hearts, Janet, I don't think that you think that, either.
Heledd made the point that this is about correcting a historic injustice.

Delyth Jewell AC: Heledd also reminded us that exactly the same communities thatsuffered so much with the coal industry are now facing the greatest effects of the climate crisis.

Delyth Jewell AC: Just because something hasn't been done doesn't mean it should continue.

Delyth Jewell AC: Well, indeed, Heledd. I'd also like to thank Hefin for pointing out that Westminster is denying the truth, as many Members have said.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you for bringing more information about the situation in Caerphilly as well, and I agree entirely that there should be a public register, taking on board some of the points that you have made, of course.

Delyth Jewell AC: Peredur has spoken about the price paid by whole communities, the possibilities in terms of regeneration, too, and biodiversity, and we need to safeguard that for the future, of course.

Delyth Jewell AC: And Sioned talked about the duality, again, of the legacy of these tips, a legacy that inspired and injured. She reminded us that coal tips are not the only tips, of course, that need to be made safe, and, again, about the practical and psychological toll that these tips take when there's an identified risk but that can't yet be put right. That was very powerful.
Thank you, again, to the Deputy Minister for his response, for talking us through some more information about the trials on early warning systems, some reclamation options, and again reminding us that it's only morally right that Westminster should pay.
Llywydd, when we're talking about tips that stain our mountain sides, we're talking about blotches, stains, smears, marks on our collective memory, objects of shame. They ensure the ugliest, most cruel, perilous elements of mining have defiled and scarred communities. Mining has marked them all, but some marks wear thin. There's a cemetery in Llanfabon above Nelson and near where I live. I know almost every contour because all four of my grandparents are buried there. It's a beautiful cemetery. In lots of ways it's unremarkable, but there's at least one aspect that sets it apart. Along the northern wall, not far from the entrance, there's a row of 11 graves. In the middle of that row is a formal monument, but each of the graves is marked with the same words: 'Unknown. Albion explosion, 1894'. The monument itself has none of the names of those lost souls. It would appear there is no trace of their identity. I always find it hard to grasp how it could be that there would be no trace left of a human being. Perhaps their injuries meant that they were unidentifiable, but surely their families would have given up a list of the missing and the dead. Maybe none of them left behind any family. Perhaps the only people who knew them were the people who perished with them.
A total of 219 men and boys died in the Albion colliery disaster, but these 11 were further robbed in death by that most basic right—the right to have a name, to be known and remembered. A quarter of a century later, Rudyard Kipling chose the phrase 'known unto God' for Commonwealth graves of unknown soldiers. It's just as suitable for these 11 men, since no mortal mourned their passing. They left no trace, no mark, no signal they had ever lived, drawn breath, laboured and died. There is a perverse cruelty in the fact that, in these tips, we are left with a constant physical memory of an industry that, at its worst moments, wiped men and boys from the face of the earth without mark or trace. And those who lived, the lucky ones, had the dust, as it was referred to—in the Valleys, dust doesn't mean something that you just wipe off surfaces; it was the name for the crippling disease that disabled generations of men and left them gasping for breath. That is mining's legacy. So too are these tips the scars that hide in plain sight. We cannot bring back the memory of those known only unto God, but we can honour their memory, and honour the sacrifices of all miners and all who lost so much in those years. We cannot wipe the slate clean, but we can at least try to balance the books. I hope this motion will pass. I hope that, in the corridors of Westminster, some justice can at last be done.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, therefore we will defer voting on this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

We have reached voting time. We will take a short break now to make technical preparations for that vote.

Plenary was suspended at 18:12.
The Senedd reconvened at 18:14, with the Llywydd in the Chair.

8. Voting Time

That brings us to voting time, and the votes today are on the Plaid Cymru debate on high-risk tips. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 12, no abstentions, 40 against. The motion is, therefore, not agreed.

Item 7. Plaid Cymru Debate - High-risk tips. Motion without amendment: For: 12, Against: 40, Abstain: 0
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

We move now to amendment 1. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 14, no abstentions, 38 against. And therefore, amendment 1 is not agreed.

Item 7. Plaid Cymru debate. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Darren Millar: For: 14, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

We will move now to amendment 2, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 14, no abstentions, 38 against. Amendment 2 is not agreed.

Item 7. Plaid Cymru debate. Amendment 2, tabled in the name of Darren Millar: For: 14, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

We move now to amendment 3. I call for a vote on amendment 3, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 52, no abstentions, none against. Amendment 3 is agreed.

Item 7. Plaid Cymru debate. Amendment 3, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths: For: 52, Against: 0, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

The final vote will be on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM7972 as amended:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes that more than 300 tips are known to be classed as high risk, and the increased rainfall associated with climate change could further destabilise tips across the valleys.
2. Calls on the Welsh Government to ensure that high-risk tips are made safe by:
a) asking local authorities to release information about where high-risk tips are located;
b) insisting that the UK Government provides funding to repurpose, reclaim and remediate tips;
c) installing early-warning systems wherever possible;
d) reinstating the land reclamation grant to help deal with risks on tips.
3. Calls on the Welsh Government to publish a national plan of action to help regenerate the areas surrounding the tips.
4. Calls on the Welsh Government to engage local communities to inform the approach to future tip management and tip reclamation taking full advantage of opportunities for job creation, training and upskilling and securing wider benefits.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 52, no abstentions, none against. And therefore, the motion as amended is agreed. That concludes voting time for today.

Item 7. Plaid Cymru debate - High-Risk tips. Motion as amended: For: 52, Against: 0, Abstain: 0
Motion as amended has been agreedClick to see vote results

9. Short Debate: Motor neurone disease and access to treatment and facilities in Wales

We will now move on to the short debate, and today's short debate is to be led by Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd. It's a pleasure to be able to present this debate today to draw attention to the current situation in Wales with regard to motor neurone disease and access to the treatment and facilities that are currently available in Wales. It's a pleasure to confirm that I have agreed to give a minute of my time to Peter Fox, who has led so much on this issue.
Motor neurone disease, or MND, as it is commonly know, is a deadly disease that develops particularly rapidly, affecting the brain and spinal cord. The disease attacks the nerves that control the body's movements to such an extent that muscles can no longer function. This leads to people being locked in bodies that are failing them, making speaking and moving impossible, meaning that they are, in the end, unable to breathe and die as a result of MND.

Joyce Watson took the Chair.

Adam Price AC: According to the data, the risk of a person developing MND is around one in 300. In Wales, around 200 people are living with MND at any one time. This number is lower than expected, perhaps, as a result of the disease's ability to develop fairly rapidly. For a third of people who receive an MND diagnosis, this means that they will sadly die within a year of that diagnosis. Over half of those living with MND die within two years of receiving a diagnosis. It's very important to remember, of course, there is no cure for MND in existence at present, unfortunately. With such a serious situation facing those living with MND, it's entirely clear that research and clinical trials play a key role as we battle this terrible disease. The news that clinical trials are currently being undertaken in Wales is therefore positive, but unfortunately, the feedback arising from this process is that progress is very slow.
A report in January of this year noted that of the 50 people who had registered for the trials since September 2021, only one person had been seen. While I very much hope that the trials have accelerated since then, I would like to make it clear that this lack of progress is no criticism of the clinical specialists involved. The lack of progress demonstrates a lack of capacity in the system to be able to push this work forward. As I understand it, the individuals involved in this programme often do this work on top of a whole host of other responsibilities in their field of neurology. Isn't there a case to be made here for appointing a lead neurologist with a specific brief covering MND research and treatment, who could then drive this trial programme forward, such a key programme? The MND Association has said specifically that a lack of staff is a major factor, with insufficient numbers of neurologists to run the trials, which is a huge challenge, clearly. Professor of neurology AmmarAl-Chalabi has echoed this point, stating that Wales would derive great benefit from having a lead neurologist with these priorities clearly set out in their contract.
Another weapon that we have in our battle against the disease is the MND-SMART trial, which began at the end of last year in Wales. MND-SMART is an innovative trial that is seeking new drugs that can slow the development of MND with the intention of developing them further to be able to stop the disease, and ultimately, to reverse the disease for those who have developed advanced symptoms. Unfortunately, access to these trials is still proving difficult for people living with MND. At present, the brief of the south Wales MND network is to provide multidisciplinary care for people living with MND across south Wales, and the southern part of mid Wales, and they receive funding from the health service and the MND Association. The network is therefore responsible for undertaking the SMART trials while participating in other studies.
I have been speaking to a family in my constituency that has experienced the systematic issues that we currently have with MND research and treatment, namely the Gledhill family. Bob Gledhill received an MND diagnosis in October 2020, and unfortunately, the SMART trials were not available in Wales when he received that diagnosis.Bob's wife, Lowri, wanted to do everything she could to ensure that Bob could access the SMART trials. Lowri went as far as Oxford to try to register her husband in a SMART programme without success. Unfortunately, trial centres aren't eager to register people who live very far away, and this was obviously very frustrating for them as a family. As time went by, they continued to seek access to treatment that offered the very best possibility of alleviating the situation, no matter how small that possibility.

Adam Price AC: Since then, Bob has received an invitation to be part of the SMART trial in Wales, and while this is a positive development, I understand that Bob still hasn’t been seen by a specialist as part of that process, around eighteen months—a year and a half—since he received his MND diagnosis. I refer back to the statistics I quoted at the beginning of this debate, which point to the fact that time is certainly against someone in Bob’s situation. You yourself, Minister, will understand that MND as a disease is unpredictable and develops rapidly, and, as a result, prompt access to services that are able to provide any treatment is vital. Time isn’t on the side of people like Bob who are living with MND. I spoke to Lowri about her experiences, and her family’s experience, and I want to read her words aloud to you, if I may:
'Personally, there are no words that can portray effectively what our family has experienced over the past year and a half since Bob received the diagnosis of motor neurone disease. How do you describe the relentless decline of personal freedom that comes with this disease, which prevents you from completing even the simplest of tasks—the tasks that define you and make you the person that you are? How can I begin to describe how it feels to watch the person you love tripping and falling time and time again, while they feel so frustrated and are so determined to be independent that they refuse help to get up again? How do you describe the courage that a person needs to be able to get up time after time, when every occasion is more difficult than the last, on a daily basis? How can I describe the impact of yet another letter stating that it isn’t possible to access the clinical trials, when your partner’s life expectancy is now a matter of months rather than years? How can I describe the strength needed to continue to battle for MND patients, when the response one hears back from the system every time is that it’s better to give up, say "thank you" for the wheelchair, and sit quietly in the corner?'
I’m sure that all of us here wish Bob, Lowri and the rest of the family all the very best as they continue to work and strive through such a challenging time. Of course, there are recent developments at a UK level, with £50 million promised in November of last year to develop a national MND research institute, and those developments are very much to be welcomed. For us in Wales to be part of this project with this new body, we must develop a satellite institute or centre, and then we could access this funding that is so vital.
For me, Minister, after hearing directly from Lowri, the best solution to the situation here in Wales is entirely clear—we need a lead neurologist on a full-time contract in Wales, funded or substantially supported by the Welsh Government. This role could develop the accessibility of the clinical research for those who live with MND, it could lead progress with trials and tests in Wales, and could ensure that Wales has a role in the new national MND research institute. Will you, therefore, Minister, to support those people in Wales, such as the Gledhill family, who are living with this cruel disease, and those who will receive an MND diagnosis in future, commit to this, so that we in Wales can build the capacity in Wales to give the best possible support to these entirely heroic families, whoare dealing with the implicationsof motor neurone disease, and to alleviate the pain and pressure on them that I've seen directly? I know that you, Minister, have experience in your own family. Let us take this step that will mean so much to so many families across Wales.

Peter Fox AS: Can I thank Adam Price for bringing this debate today and allowing me a minute of his time, but also for the eloquent way in which you described the situation once again? This is a devastating disease that impacts families so terribly, as you've described, Adam, so well. And the problem that Bob and Lowri are facing is replicated in many families across Wales. It may only be a small number in the total, but it's such an important group of people who need our support.
I've done a lot of work with the MND Association over the last year and heard first-hand from people living with MND, as you have Adam, and it's a devastating disease that progresses at such a devastating pace, affecting young and old alike, and having a huge impact on the whole family. And they can't see any way out, because it just gets worse—there's no light at the end of the tunnel. It's extremely sad; time is not on their side.
Only 0.2 per cent of people selected for research in Wales had MND, meaning that less than £30,000 of the Welsh Government's money was spent on research for this specific condition. It's just not enough. MND research Wales is a new group, as Adam pointed out, aiming to improve clinical research across Wales and ensure the delivery of a model in Wales to be part of the national UK MND Research Institute as part of the £50 million awarded by the UK Government. I'd like to also ask the Minister if you would consider agreeing to meet with the representatives from the MND research Wales group to hear how a lead neurologist for Wales, specialising in MND, and with a care and research function, would make a real difference to the people living with MND in Wales.
We've raised this several times in the Chamber, or the plight of people with MND, and I think we need to keep doing that, because every day, every minute and hour we wait, those people are suffering longer and longer and there is no way out for them, so we have to act fast. Thank you.

Joyce Watson AC: I now call on the Minister for Health and Social Services to reply to the debate, Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. Firstly, I'd like to thank Adam Price for bringing this important issue to the Chamber and also to thank Peter Fox who I know has championed this cause since he entered the Senedd.
When we debated this last December, there was equally as much compassion as I've heard for people with MND and their families and loved ones as I've heard today. Some of us, as you've pointed out Adam, have personal experience of this. My wonderful uncle Robert suffered an incredibly cruel death. And I think that's one of the things that makes this so difficult, compared to other illnesses, is the cruelty of this dreadful condition and it's certainly a diagnosis that nobody wants to receive. And, certainly, I can't begin to understand what Bob and Lowri and the family are going through, but I did have a slight insight through the terrible, terrible suffering that my uncle went through. And thankfully, it isn't a common disease, but for those people who receive a diagnosis, that's no comfort at all. MND is a truly devastating and life-shortening disease with no treatment or cure, and life expectancy for many being only two to five years from the onset of symptoms. And as you pointed out, Adam, there are around 200 people in Wales living with MND at any one time, and they do. And we try and give them access to a suite of support for their physical, psychological and social needs, and I think it's critical to ensure that we continue to do that to enable them to live a dignified life and to maintain as much independence as possible.
Now, access to relational, physical and psychosocial support makes a really big difference to people's lives, and the range of physical and psychosocial therapies and medication can help to manage their symptoms and keep their skills, abilities and independence for as long as possible, and these can include assistive technologies, including equipment to support or replace speech, and mobility or adapting people's homes to make them as accessible as possible, so that they can continue to do the things that matter to them.
Now, our specialist augmentative and alternative communication service, supplemented by local support from a range of allied health professionals in every health board and access to specialist communication equipment services, is provided across Wales. In 2018 an additional investment of £608,000 was made to expand the service and increase speech and language therapy posts. So, whilst you point out that the money is not going into research in the way that you'd like, actually the money is going into making their life a bit better while they're still with us, and that ensures that that local multiprofessional team continues to support those people for as long as possible.
Continuity of care, co-ordination, partnership and collaboration between services and co-production with those who receive these services is also really important. In south Wales, a network model of care has been developed through the south Wales MND care network, and this is a model that other centres in the UK are now trying to replicate, and colleagues from Northern Ireland have spent time with the south Wales team to learn about the network model, with a view of adopting a similar approach. That network model is founded on collaboration and partnership, enabling flexibility and agility within the services to respond to the needs of patients and their families in a timely way. And in north Wales, Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board have been awarded a certificate of partnership by the MND association, and that's in recognition of the constructive and highly successful partnership relationship over several years between the health board and the Motor Neurone Disease Association to improve the standard of service for people affected by MND. The health board and the association have successfully worked in partnership with people with MND, their families, carers and staff, to co-produce exciting and innovative opportunities to shape MND services in north Wales, and that includes the appointment of two MND care co-ordinators, who, alongside a range of other partners, support all people with MND in north Wales.
But as we know, there's always room to improve. The Welsh Government is continuing to work with the neurological conditions implementation group to improve services for all those with neurological conditions across Wales, including MND, and improved access to psychosocial support and multiprofessional clinical neurology expertise is being prioritised by this group. And in the absence of curative treatment options, the Welsh Government recognises that clinical trials will have a significant role to play as we seek a treatment for MND. And the Welsh Government, through Health and Care Research Wales, provides infrastructure to support and increase the research across Wales, and that includes funding of approximately £15 million to NHS organisations, to enable them to undertake high-quality clinical trials in a broad range of areas, including MND. And I'm aware, through my colleagues at Health and Care Research Wales, that there are several MND studies open in Swansea Bay University Health Board and Cardiff and Vale University Health Board. In some cases, support is also available for patients who are eligible for clinical research studies outside of Wales, for example in the Walton Centre NHS Foundation Trust, who provide specialist care to our patients with MND in north Wales.
I recognise that we need to grow the range of MND studies being carried out in Wales, building on that current SMART trial, which you emphasise is already recruiting. But I will give some thought to the idea of appointing a lead neurologist in this area.

Eluned Morgan AC: In the budget in March, we added £2 million to the adaptation budget, with additional funds for care and repair for local authorities, so that people can adapt their own homes as their condition worsens. Most adaptations are small and are completed in a matter of days. Over the past two years, the Minister for Climate Change has added £2 million to the funding for local authorities.

Adam Price AC: I'm very grateful to the Minister, and I welcome what you've said, that you are going to consider this idea of having a lead neurologist. As part of that consideration, and as Peter Fox asked, would you be willing to meet with the MND research network to hear the arguments and the benefits that would emanate from that directly? I'm certain that it would be very much welcomed by the families if you were willing to commit to doing that.

Eluned Morgan AC: I would be happy to do that, but let me look at the advice that I receive. But I'm more than happy to look into whether this is something we would want to see, and whether the expertise is available for this kind of development. So, I'm happy to do that, and I hope that I can meet with you and Peter Fox too.
It is worth saying in conclusion that small adaptations are available, but there are also major adaptations, but, unfortunately, people run out of time for those adaptations. So, the Welsh Government is committed to work with partners to find and take advantage of opportunities to make these improvements that are so important to those living with MND, so that nobody feels that they are isolated. Thank you.

Joyce Watson AC: And that brings today's proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 18:41.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Heledd Fychan: What steps is the Minister taking to safeguard the future of higher education?

Mark Drakeford: We have provided substantial financial support to help higher education institutions deal with the impact of the pandemic. This year's total allocation of funding to HEFCW amounts to over £274 million. This funding, together with our student support system, provides a good foundation for maintaining the sustainability of Welsh higher education.

Questions to the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language

Buffy Williams: How will the Welsh Government support the most disadvantaged pupils in Rhondda?

Jeremy Miles: Countering the effects of poverty on children and young people’s attainment is central to our flagship pupil development grant. Year on year we have extended the PDG to reflect the increase for children eligible for free school meals with funding for 2022-23 now over £130 million.

Joyce Watson: What is the Welsh Government doing to support families meet the cost of the school day in Mid and West Wales?

Jeremy Miles: In recognition of the pressures facing families, on 14 March I announced an additional one off payment of £100 to every child or young person eligible for PDG Access for the upcoming school year.

Questions to the Deputy Minister for Climate Change

Mark Isherwood: What action is the Welsh Government taking to assess and meet the need for rented homes?

Lee Waters: We are working with local authorities to review and strengthen the approach to assessing local housing need through local housing market assessments. A £50.41 million social housing grant has been allocated for north Wales in 2021-22 to provide more homes for rent in the social sector.

Jenny Rathbone: What is the Welsh Government doing to get private sector landlords to decarbonise their properties?

Lee Waters: To kick-start decarbonisation of Wales’s 1.4 million homes, I am investing £150 million in the optimised retrofit programme over the next three years to learn how to decarbonise social homes efficiently and effectively. What we learn from social housing will amplify and accelerate efforts to reduce carbon emissions for all homes.

Tom Giffard: Will the Minister provide an update on plans for the south Wales metro?

Lee Waters: Bringing our metro programmes to life is ambitious and complex. Significant construction work is already under way on the south Wales metro through the £738 million core Valleys lines transformation, and the Swansea bay & west Wales metro is spearheading pilots on hydrogen powered busses and integrated ticketing.

Andrew R.T. Davies: What consideration has the Minister given to requests to call in the planning application for a business park at Model Farm in the Vale of Glamorgan?

Lee Waters: Following the Vale of Glamorgan Council’s agreement to the quashing of the previous decision, the council must prepare a new report on the application. I will consider whether to call in the application when we receive the new report from the council.